Question...what happened to Adam's sin?

[Seth Doty]

Can anyone explain the theology of "Abraham's bosom?" Was Jesus turning Rabbinical tradition on its head in his PARABLE?

The story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16 is relating actual events, it is not a typical parable in that regard. Christ told one of the thieves on the cross "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise", while he also said: "Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

You can also see it referenced in several places in the OT such as these:

"Psalm 71:20 Thou, which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth."

"Psalm 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them."

"Isaiah 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house."

Isaiah 49:9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.

Isaiah 61:1 The spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;



It is also referenced indirectly in pictures such as the cities of refuge where those those found guilty of murder(not first degree) could flee and be safe from the avenger of blood until the death of the high priest, at which time they could leave the city of refuge without fear of being killed by the avenger of blood. The single example I can think of that might imply something else is Elijah going "up to heaven" by a whirlwind. Still, there is no certainty that it is referring to the third heaven although that is generally assumed and it may well be the sole reason for it was to picture the rapture just like when Enoch was "translated".

[Covenanter]

Thanks, S-D, but I don't see in those references any theology of Abraham's bosom.

The only direct Scripture is: Gen 16:5 And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong [be] upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee. I'm sure that that Scripture is not relevant either.

Your texts relate to the state of the OT dead, but say nothing of "Abraham's bosom."

In proving the resurrection from "Moses" Jesus says: Mar 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I [am] the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

I think that you are saying that the believing dead, who lived & died in faith, are nevertheless "spirits in prison" to whom Christ preached when he "descended into hell" as the creed puts it. I think you are totally mistaken. Can you clarify what you are teaching? It seems as if you are teaching that Paradise is a prison for spirits.

[John81]

Luke 16:22 (King James Version)

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

This is "Paradise", not the "spirits in prison".

[Brother Rick]

I think that you are saying that the believing dead, who lived & died in faith, are nevertheless "spirits in prison" to whom Christ preached when he "descended into hell" as the creed puts it. I think you are totally mistaken. Can you clarify what you are teaching? It seems as if you are teaching that Paradise is a prison for spirits.

Seth has nailed this one. Abraham's Bosom and Paradise are interchangeable terms, and they were both in the heart of the Earth before Christ's resurrection. Like Seth said, Jesus told that thief that "today thou shalt be with me in Paradise," but that day Christ didn't go to Heaven - he spent three days and three nights in the Heart of the Earth. That's where Paradise was at the time.

In the OT the sacrifices in the law that were done in faith were accepted by God, breaking certain portions of the law in faith or not offering sacrifices because of an understanding of the meaning of the symbolism was accepted by God, and sacrifices done without faith and merely as ritual were not accepted by God. If you want all of that can be backed up with scriptural examples.

I agree with this.

And what happened to Adam's sin? It was covered by the blood same as anyone else...it was covered by the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Adam was saved by grace through faith same as Enoch, Abraham, Noah....and me.

Sorry if this comes off the wrong way, but just saying this doesn’t make it so, and it certainly doesn’t solve any of the problems that I demonstrated with the idea that everyone from every age was saved in that age the same way we are now. Edited March 14, 2011 by Rick Schworer

[heartstrings]

Seth has nailed this one. Abraham's Bosom and Paradise are interchangeable terms, and they were both in the heart of the Earth before Christ's resurrection. Like Seth said, Jesus told that thief that "today thou shalt be with me in Paradise," but that day Christ didn't go to Heaven - he spent three days and three nights in the Heart of the Earth. That's where Paradise was at the time.



I agree with this.



Sorry if this comes off the wrong way, but just saying this doesn’t make it so, and it certainly doesn’t solve any of the problems that I demonstrated with the idea that everyone from every age was saved in that age the same way we are now.

No, the Bible says it and that makes it so.

Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
To whom did "the Word" give "power to become the sons of God"?
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Edited March 14, 2011 by heartstrings

[Guest]

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Matthew 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

QUESTIONS: Is Abraham’s bosom/the kingdom of heaven/captivity captive/prison house/etc. all the same place? Are they not all “heaven” BUT not in the presence of GOD the Father until after Jesus Christ has completed His ministry establishing faith alone?

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

2 Corinthians 5:4-10
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

NOTE: Now we can be present with GOD at the foot of His throne. Not before Christ shed His blood.

Colossians 1:21-29
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

THOUGHT: Although the saints are in heaven or Abraham’s bosom they cannot approach to the throne until…

Mark 15:38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

Hebrews 6:18-20
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Hebrews 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;

Hebrews 9:7-12
7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

NOTE: Read the rest of Hebrews 9.

Hebrews 10:19-22
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

SIDE NOTE: This in no way supports purgatory and a requirement for prayers for the dead. “It is finished.” Neither, does it support faith plus baptism or any other mechanical requirement, again” It is finished.”

YOUR THOUGHTS: ???

[Brother Rick]

No, the Bible says it and that makes it so.

Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
To whom did "the Word" give "power to become the sons of God"?
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

Angels are called sons of God in Job: was it because they were indwelt by the Holy Spirit, members of the body of Christ, who accepted Jesus as their Saviour or was it because they were direct creations of God, just like Adam?

Job 38:6-7, "Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7) When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

Finding someone in the Old Testament that is called a "son of God" or "children of God" is not the same as finding someone in the Old Testament who is saved like we are today.

Believing something God said, or believing something God said and obeying Him is not the same as receiving Jesus Christ as one's Saviour, which is found all throughout the New Testament but there are no examples of it in the Old Testament.

[heartstrings]

Angels are called sons of God in Job: was it because they were indwelt by the Holy Spirit, members of the body of Christ, who accepted Jesus as their Saviour or was it because they were direct creations of God, just like Adam?

Job 38:6-7, "Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7) When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

Finding someone in the Old Testament that is called a "son of God" or "children of God" is not the same as finding someone in the Old Testament who is saved like we are today.

Believing something God said, or believing something God said and obeying Him is not the same as receiving Jesus Christ as one's Saviour, which is found all throughout the New Testament but there are no examples of it in the Old Testament.

Who was David's Lord?

The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Psalm 110:1 *Luke 20:41-44

Who does David say is "my salvation" at least 17 times? Psalm 51:14

Where did David have confidence that he was going?
Psalm 23:6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

Did David live in the OT? Edited March 14, 2011 by heartstrings

[Guest]

Who was David's Lord?

The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Psalm 110:1 *Luke 20:41-44

Who does David say is "my salvation" at least 17 times? Psalm 51:14

Where did David have confidence that he was going?
Psalm 23:6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

Did David live in the OT?

That house didn't include "into the holiest of all" and while it "was not yet made manifest" David could have wandered the halls of the LORD's house but, I don't believe from the scripture I examined, he was ever in the presence of LORD until the Son made it accessable.

[Brother Rick]

David also said this:

Ps. 15:1-5, "LORD, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?
2) He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.
3) He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour.
4) In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoureth them that fear the LORD. He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not.
5) He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved."

That looks like works to me. I'm not saying that David was saved by works, he had the "sure mercies of David." But just because David called God "Lord" and knew where he was going when he died doesn't mean he trusted in Christ like we do.

The Old Testament is twice as big as the New Testament, if everyone back then got saved like everyone does now, you should be able to find one example of someone preaching salvation by faith in the coming Messiah or something like that. You can't, and neither could the twelve apostles after following Jesus around for three years.

[Guest]

David also said this:

Ps. 15:1-5, "LORD, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?
2) He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.
3) He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour.
4) In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoureth them that fear the LORD. He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not.
5) He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved."

That looks like works to me. I'm not saying that David was saved by works, he had the "sure mercies of David." But just because David called God "Lord" and knew where he was going when he died doesn't mean he trusted in Christ like we do.

The Old Testament is twice as big as the New Testament, if everyone back then got saved like everyone does now, you should be able to find one example of someone preaching salvation by faith in the coming Messiah or something like that. You can't, and neither could the twelve apostles after following Jesus around for three years.

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

[heartstrings]

David also said this:

Ps. 15:1-5, "LORD, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?
2) He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.
3) He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour.
4) In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoureth them that fear the LORD. He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not.
5) He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved."

That looks like works to me. I'm not saying that David was saved by works, he had the "sure mercies of David." But just because David called God "Lord" and knew where he was going when he died doesn't mean he trusted in Christ like we do.

The Old Testament is twice as big as the New Testament, if everyone back then got saved like everyone does now, you should be able to find one example of someone preaching salvation by faith in the coming Messiah or something like that. You can't, and neither could the twelve apostles after following Jesus around for three years.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

A child of God; a 'son of God' has two natures; the old man or 'the flesh' born of the flesh and the 'new man' born of the Spirit. God isn't going to let that part of that STILL sins into Heaven.... it just ain't going to be there.. Only that which is "born of God" which cannot sin is going..

i John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Now read the verses you posted above.

[Brother Rick]

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

A child of God; a 'son of God' has two natures; the old man or 'the flesh' born of the flesh and the 'new man' born of the Spirit. God isn't going to let that part of that STILL sins into Heaven.... it just ain't going to be there.. Only that which is "born of God" which cannot sin is going..

i John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Now read the verses you posted above.

That's fine if people in the Old Testament were born again; are you saying that people in the Old Testament were born again? Do you also think they were in the body of Christ? If so, then what was the significance of the Holy Spirit coming down in the New Testament? Why aren't all the verses about the Holy Spirit being the "earnest of our inheritance" and the verses on being "sealed with the Holy Spirit" in the Old Testament?

If salvation is the same in the New Testament as it was in the Old, then why did God wait so long to tell us about it?

You keep using New Testament scriptures to explain Old Testament theology. If faith in Christ for salvation was as common in the Old Testament as it is in the New, you should be able to find something back there to support the idea.

Put yourself in the shoes of someone before Christ. There is no New Testament, so why do you keep using the New Testament to explain things that have nothing to do with the New Testament? Imagine tearing all the New Testament out of your Bible, and then show someone how to get their sin problem taken care of.

You know what would wind up happening? You wind up in Leviticus reading verses like this:

Lev. 6:6-7, "And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD, a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest:
7) And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein."

Lev. 5:6, "And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin."

Lev. 5:16, "And he shall make amends for the harm that he hath done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him."

Lev. 5:13, "And the priest shall make an atonement for him as touching his sin that he hath sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him: and the remnant shall be the priest's, as a meat offering."

I don't see anything in these verses about trusting Christ. It plainly states that when an Old Testament saint offers a sacrifice that two things happen:

1) There is an atonement made for his sin.
2) His sin is forgiven.

Running to the New Testament to find verses on eternal security, the standing/state of the believer, the body of Christ and other Pauline doctrines doesn't work - remember, you're in the Old Testament and you have a sin problem. All you have access to is Old Testament scriptures, the priests, and the prophets.

[Guest]

I believe that between Isaiah 52:7 and 53:12 and then Habakkuk 2:2-4...the truth was there for them in the OT. Faith in the "righteous servant."
Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

I don't know if there were any who figured it out. But, I know Isaiah was preaching Christ.

[Seth Doty]

QUESTIONS: Is Abraham’s bosom/the kingdom of heaven/captivity captive/prison house/etc. all the same place? Are they not all “heaven” BUT not in the presence of GOD the Father until after Jesus Christ has completed His ministry establishing faith alone?

"The kingdom of heaven" is not speaking of the same place, but the others are speaking of "paradise". In the OT "hell" had two compartments, a place of torment, and a pleasant, temporary holding place till Christs work was complete. God's presence was there, but not the glory of God. God's presence is just about everywhere.

"Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there."


A couple more verses showing that in the OT they had to wait for the redemption of Christ:

"Psalm 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah."

Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.


Here David shows that he was expecting to go to the "depths of the earth" where "paradise" or "hell" was until Christs redemption.

"Psalm 71:20 Thou, which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth."

And again here is another OT prophecy about this deliverance from "paradise", the "prison house", or what ever term you want to use.

Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

This was fulfilled here:

"Matthew 27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

Just as Jesus stayed around a while to testify to the believers of his resurrection so apparently did a number of deceased OT believers who arose with him. Edited March 15, 2011 by Seth-Doty