"universal rights of the people"

[HappyChristian]

Actually they make the claim that such is the case but provide no proof. Nowhere in Scripture does God proclaim these "universal rights".

What God does proclaim is that all who reject Christ are condemned to hell. All who accept Christ are to become as slaves to Christ, casting off all our own wants, taking on the nature of Christ and pursuing the will of God.

God also commands that we submit ourselves to the rulers who are over us. The ONLY exception is if they command us to go directly against the Word of God. Even then, we are told to be prepared to pay the consequences and to do so with joy.

Christ promises that if we truly follow Him we WILL suffer prersecution. In our suffering persecution for the sake of Christ we are to count it all joy and be rejoicing.

How are Christians commanded to have better government? By prayer! Christians are commanded to pray for their leaders and to pray for peaceable conditions so we may live by the Word and spread the Gospel.

No promise of "universal rights", not statements that men are to have liberty, to be able to pursue happiness, to be guarenteed internet connections, to have free access to information, etc.

John, we've hashed this out before, and you can continue to be wrong if you want to, but I'm not going to argue about it. If you choose to believe that our founders were so wrong, and that we have no fundamental rights given to us by God, and if you choose to persist in the false belief that our elected servants are our rulers, so be it.

I guess you won't be voting anymore, then, since Christians are commanded only to pray for better government.
:smilie_loco:4

[John81]

John, we've hashed this out before, and you can continue to be wrong if you want to, but I'm not going to argue about it. If you choose to believe that our founders were so wrong, and that we have no fundamental rights given to us by God, and if you choose to persist in the false belief that our elected servants are our rulers, so be it.

I guess you won't be voting anymore, then, since Christians are commanded only to pray for better government.

Put forth the Scripture which proclaims we have "universal rights". Put forth the Scripture which states that what the Founders wrote in the Declaration is infallible and true. Put forth the Scripture which declares those verses of Scripture which command us to be subject to our leaders doesn't include being subject to elected leaders. Put forth the Scripture which says Believers are to involve themselves in rebellion. Put forth the Scripture which says Believers are to be more concerned with the things of this world than the things of God.

It is you who are holding to unbiblical beliefs.

[HappyChristian]

Put forth the Scripture which proclaims we have "universal rights". Put forth the Scripture which states that what the Founders wrote in the Declaration is infallible and true. Put forth the Scripture which declares those verses of Scripture which command us to be subject to our leaders doesn't include being subject to elected leaders. Put forth the Scripture which says Believers are to involve themselves in rebellion. Put forth the Scripture which says Believers are to be more concerned with the things of this world than the things of God.

It is you who are holding to unbiblical beliefs.

I said I wasn't going to argue, so I'm not, but I am going to point out a few things here...

#1. Point out where I ever said what the founders wrote is infallible.
#2. Put forth where I ever said believers are to be more concerned with the things of this world than the things of God. You cannot, because I have never.

As to scripture, etc., as I said, this has been hashed already and I'm not going to get into it again - as you've told others in the past who've posted questions, do a search of past threads. No, I'm not holding to unbiblical beliefs: you are holding to unbiblical teachings. And, to be consistent, you have to stay away from the voting booth. Gonna do that? :wink

[no name joe]

Put forth the Scripture which proclaims we have "universal rights". Put forth the Scripture which states that what the Founders wrote in the Declaration is infallible and true. Put forth the Scripture which declares those verses of Scripture which command us to be subject to our leaders doesn't include being subject to elected leaders. Put forth the Scripture which says Believers are to involve themselves in rebellion. Put forth the Scripture which says Believers are to be more concerned with the things of this world than the things of God.

It is you who are holding to unbiblical beliefs.

"Universal rights" are all throughout Scripture. They are the foundation for the 10 commandments. They are the foundation of one of the two greatest commandments, "Love your neighbor as yourself." They are the basis of civil society. If there are no universal rights, then it is survival of the fittest. If there are no universal rights, then there is no justice, after all, how can be there be justice when there are no rights to trample upon?

Saying there are no universal rights is absurd. Man has certain rights by merely being conceived in the womb. The right to life is one. If there are no universal rights, abortion is ok. If there are no universal rights, then it is ok to kill those who are "useless" for society. If there are no universal rights, then Hitler was justified in slaughtering milliions of innocent lives, becasue he was stronger and could gather more support. Universal rights are inherent. They are recognized by all people to some degree. Killing an innocent person is wrong in any society. Stealing is wrong in every society. So is there not some universal right to life and to some sort of property ownership, that is engraved by God on each of our hearts? If there are no universal rights, there are no uniersal morals, because morals are a violation of some form of universal right. If there is not a universal right to life, then it is not wrong to murder.

Love thy neighbor as thyself. How can we do that if we do not recognize that our neighbor has some basic, fundamental rights in being born on this earth?

[HappyChristian]

"Universal rights" are all throughout Scripture. They are the foundation for the 10 commandments. They are the foundation of one of the two greatest commandments, "Love your neighbor as yourself." They are the basis of civil society. If there are no universal rights, then it is survival of the fittest. If there are no universal rights, then there is no justice, after all, how can be there be justice when there are no rights to trample upon?

Saying there are no universal rights is absurd. Man has certain rights by merely being conceived in the womb. The right to life is one. If there are no universal rights, abortion is ok. If there are no universal rights, then it is ok to kill those who are "useless" for society. If there are no universal rights, then Hitler was justified in slaughtering milliions of innocent lives, becasue he was stronger and could gather more support. Universal rights are inherent. They are recognized by all people to some degree. Killing an innocent person is wrong in any society. Stealing is wrong in every society. So is there not some universal right to life and to some sort of property ownership, that is engraved by God on each of our hearts? If there are no universal rights, there are no uniersal morals, because morals are a violation of some form of universal right. If there is not a universal right to life, then it is not wrong to murder.

Love thy neighbor as thyself. How can we do that if we do not recognize that our neighbor has some basic, fundamental rights in being born on this earth?

:goodpost:

[Brother Rick]

:goodpost:

[JerryNumbers]

Put forth the Scripture which proclaims we have "universal rights". Put forth the Scripture which states that what the Founders wrote in the Declaration is infallible and true. Put forth the Scripture which declares those verses of Scripture which command us to be subject to our leaders doesn't include being subject to elected leaders. Put forth the Scripture which says Believers are to involve themselves in rebellion. Put forth the Scripture which says Believers are to be more concerned with the things of this world than the things of God.

It is you who are holding to unbiblical beliefs.

John, I think your on to something. Did Jesus free people from kings, did He free slaves from their masters? I believe the answer is no, yet probablly most Americas would say He did.

I believe its more about the 'America Way,' than anything else. Just as many Christians will say:
"You cannot be a good Christians if you don't vote."
"Your not doing your Christians duty if you don't vote."


Seems for many it more about being a good American than actually being a good Christin according to the pages of the Bible.


Oh, there is nothing in the 10 Commandments about freedom, no, not one word.



Ex 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
Ex 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Ex 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Ex 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Ex 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Ex 20:12 ¶ Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Ex 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Ex 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Ex 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Ex 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Ex 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

The pages of the Bible is all about Jesus, and Jesus setting us free from sin. And the American way is all about greed, so much so that this country is built on money, just watch and listen to professing Christians during hard times, more especially the Christians business owner. In America few there be that have been set free from coveting, and they spend the majority of their life's building up earthly treasures.

[Guest]

Stoppiong the free flow of infomrantion and blocking internet informaton or other news info to the people an assault to their rights as humans.. That would be like the governemnt 100% taking control of the internet and media and papers here. You can say waht you want to about the "liberal media," but here we have an incredible system of divergetn views. "Conservative media" controls the radio, and has outlets on Fox News.

WHere the government can break up a peaceful assembly and can prevent information, that is oppressive and is a violation of rights.

How can you not see that? I am amazed that Christians cannot see that it is good to support this change in Egypt. It is not feasible everywhere to do so, but where the people are pushing for change and it is feasible, we should support that.

Yes, there are ulterior motives in everything. The US unquestionably has an ulterior motive in EVERYTHING it does in the Middle East. Stability in the region is in our best interest. Bush did not invade Iraq solely to find WMDs or rid the region of a dictator. He did so because it is in our best interest to install a governemnt that will be an ally. WHere our interest and supporting a regime change where it oppresees the people coincides, we should undoubtedly act.

I never said the cause wasn't right...I said the internet is not a right. Also, I said...
"Blood carries the day, not news papers, not radio, not television, and certainly not the internet. People died in the Colonies, people died in Egypt; real change requires the willingness to shed blood. Committment empowers the people."

[John81]

Actually when this topic came up before, Jerry, myself and some others posted much Scripture clearly showing what the Word says. Those who argued against what the Word said, didn't have alternate Scripture to invalidate what was posted.

There is a huge difference between what we in our flesh or what the world finds to be "right" and what is biblically right for Christians.

There is no basic human rights the Word tells us we are to demand from governments. There are no basic human rights put forth in Scripture which demand that Christians riot, rebel or fight for.

Loving our neighbors as ourselves is an individual command that each Christian is to personally live by. Above that comes loving God first and with ALL our heart, mind, soul and strength. Nowhere does this translate into governments having to grant freedom of speech, freedom of internet, low taxes, pursuit of happiness, more food on store shelves or any such thing.

Christians are to be the salt and light of the world, living according to the Word of God regardless of what form of government we live under, regardless of whether or not our leaders are elected, appointed, determined by heredity, or whatever. Christians are called to love our leaders, to pray for them and to be obedient unto them.

Scripture also lets us know that all human governments are corrupt regardless of what they call themselves. What God had Samuel tell the people of Israel life under a human government would be like applies across the board and has been proven out over the centuries.

Paul, John, James and the other apostles lived under a government most of us couldn't comprehend in terms of tyranny and lack of "rights", yet nowhere did they tell Christians there exists some "universal rights" they should fight for or demand. Instead, Scripture tells Christians to accept where they are in life, obey the Word of God, pray for our leaders, pray for those who persecute and mistreat us, show all Christian love, to pay our taxes, and be about living for Christ rather than concerning ourselves with other matters.

[JerryNumbers]

Actually when this topic came up before, Jerry, myself and some others posted much Scripture clearly showing what the Word says. Those who argued against what the Word said, didn't have alternate Scripture to invalidate what was posted.

There is a huge difference between what we in our flesh or what the world finds to be "right" and what is biblically right for Christians.

There is no basic human rights the Word tells us we are to demand from governments. There are no basic human rights put forth in Scripture which demand that Christians riot, rebel or fight for.

Loving our neighbors as ourselves is an individual command that each Christian is to personally live by. Above that comes loving God first and with ALL our heart, mind, soul and strength. Nowhere does this translate into governments having to grant freedom of speech, freedom of internet, low taxes, pursuit of happiness, more food on store shelves or any such thing.

Christians are to be the salt and light of the world, living according to the Word of God regardless of what form of government we live under, regardless of whether or not our leaders are elected, appointed, determined by heredity, or whatever. Christians are called to love our leaders, to pray for them and to be obedient unto them.

Scripture also lets us know that all human governments are corrupt regardless of what they call themselves. What God had Samuel tell the people of Israel life under a human government would be like applies across the board and has been proven out over the centuries.

Paul, John, James and the other apostles lived under a government most of us couldn't comprehend in terms of tyranny and lack of "rights", yet nowhere did they tell Christians there exists some "universal rights" they should fight for or demand. Instead, Scripture tells Christians to accept where they are in life, obey the Word of God, pray for our leaders, pray for those who persecute and mistreat us, show all Christian love, to pay our taxes, and be about living for Christ rather than concerning ourselves with other matters.

That is true John, but may I add this.

Show me within the pages of the Bible were all men are created equal as America proclaims. If God created all man equal, them many have gotten cheated quite bad. If all were equal, some would not be shorter than others. If all were created equal, we would not have some very good at basketball, while others are not. If we were all created equal, them I would be able to sing as good as anyone else, that I cannot do. Yet what is important is that we let Christ live through us, and put to use what ever talents we have in brining glory to God. One thing for sure, we are all created in the image of God, even though we are not created equal.

Another though about freedom, nothing about freedom in these verse, yet it clearly say, servants, obey your master, no where does it encourage us to rebel against our master. Yet rebelling against ones master is the natural tendency of man.

Eph 6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;

Col 3:22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:

[John81]

That is true John, but may I add this.

Show me within the pages of the Bible were all men are created equal as America proclaims. If God created all man equal, them many have gotten cheated quite bad. If all were equal, some would not be shorter than others. If all were created equal, we would not have some very good at basketball, while others are not. If we were all created equal, them I would be able to sing as good as anyone else, that I cannot do. Yet what is important is that we let Christ live through us, and put to use what ever talents we have in brining glory to God. One thing for sure, we are all created in the image of God, even though we are not created equal.

Another though about freedom, nothing about freedom in these verse, yet it clearly say, servants, obey your master, no where does it encourage us to rebel against our master. Yet rebelling against ones master is the natural tendency of man.

Eph 6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;

Col 3:22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:

So very true, yet most American Christians prefer American Christianity to biblical Christianity. This is why when Believers from India, Africa and elsewhere are so shocked, dismayed and disappointed when they finally get the chance to visit "Christian America" and they see how worldly American Christians are, how they are more concerned about being American than being Christian, how little they know and live by the Word, how self-centered rather than Christ centered most are.

This is, of course, why some foreign churches actually send missionaries to America today.

[HappyChristian]

No-one argued against what the Word says. What was pointed out was your fallacious views of it. But, hey, John and Jerry8 have the corner on what the Bible is talking about. All of our founders, and all of those duped Baptists of years gone by, and all of the Christians today who don't agree with you...don't know the Bible. Wow. To be in the presence of such wisdom (please know: that's sarcasm, meant in the kindest way possible).

[JerryNumbers]

No-one argued against what the Word says. What was pointed out was your fallacious views of it. But, hey, John and Jerry8 have the corner on what the Bible is talking about. All of our founders, and all of those duped Baptists of years gone by, and all of the Christians today who don't agree with you...don't know the Bible. Wow. To be in the presence of such wisdom (please know: that's sarcasm, meant in the kindest way possible).

Saying those words is not becoming of you, nor a moderator. If you can't present reasonable Biblical reasoning to back you up, it would be best if you said nothing. That is no different than names calling, in fact that is exactly what it is. A moderator ought to be above that.

There is nothing fallacious in my post.

I have PM'ed Bro. Matt about this post, he can do as he sees best.

[John81]

No-one argued against what the Word says. What was pointed out was your fallacious views of it. But, hey, John and Jerry8 have the corner on what the Bible is talking about. All of our founders, and all of those duped Baptists of years gone by, and all of the Christians today who don't agree with you...don't know the Bible. Wow. To be in the presence of such wisdom (please know: that's sarcasm, meant in the kindest way possible).

Where is the Scripture that indicates any fallacious views? On the contrary, Scripture very clearly doesn't say way you wish it did.

Why are the Founders so often held up as being beyond reproach? Just how many of the Founders were actual born again Christians living according to the Word of God? Just because some Baptists said or did something during that time period doesn't make them more accurate than Scripture. One could point to what many Baptists are doing today, such as all those who supported Bill Clinton for president and supported his policies, yet that doesn't mean they were biblically correct in their actions.

When it comes down to it, it doesn't matter what I think, what I wish, what I might prefer, but only what the Word of God says. I'm ashamed that it took me about 20 years in Christ before this really started sinking in with me. I was raised with an inflated view of America, the Founders and mos things American. It took a very long time before the Holy Ghost got me to reevaluate my beliefs and views through the Word of God. The fact is, Thomas Jefferson and the others were not abiding in Christ, they were not all-wise, America was not and is not a perfect nation, Americans have a long history of carefully picking through the Word to justify their own desires rather than searching the Scriptures dilligently and conforming their desires to what God desires.

It's also interesting to note that many Americans think that America is the only nation that sees itself as established and specially blessed by God. Such isn't true, which a little study of other nations indicates. Their national documents and traditions also proclaim God established them and specially blessed them.

We do ere when we allow our emotions, traditions, or anything else to take the place of the Word of God.

[no name joe]

So I guess that if you were a German Christian living in the day of Hitler, you would have sat by and been complicit in his murder of millions of Jews. He was the government authority, and the Scriputre tells us to obey the government authorities. Under your reasonsing, you would have sat by, gone to church, and been happy, while turning a blind eye towards the slaughter of millions of innocent people. They had no rights, as you say. THey should just sit back and accept it. Many German Christians did just that. I guess they took your view of Scripture.

Dietrich Bonhoffer, on the other hand, returned to Germany, opposed Hitler, and was ultimately put to death for his faith in Christ and standing up for the rights Jewish people.

I cannot in any way comprehend how anyone, with any moral compass, can say there are no universal rights. Saying that, you just throw morals out the window and are no different than a moral relativist. Saying there are not universal rights is also saying there are not universal truths.