By the Cross

[Guest]

What were the OT scriptures verified by our Lord and Savior?

Psalms 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

Luke 22:47 And while he yet spake, behold a multitude, and he that was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near unto Jesus to kiss him.
Luke 22:48 But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?

[no name joe]

I don't believe a set rule of giving 10% is required, as it was in the OT. However, the apostle Paul raises the bar, as does Jesus. Jesus praised not the Pharisees who gave according to the law in a showy fashion, but the widow who came and gave all she had. In Acts, the believers sold their possessions and gave to the common good of the church. In Paul's letters, each believer is to give joyfully according to their own abilities and as they have been led by the Holy Spirit. If we say that people should tithe 10%, does that perhaps not challenge people enough?

For example, my pastor knows a businessman in Washigton State who is making around $10 million a year. This man prayed years ago, before he was wealthy and he felt led to set the amount he and his wife could live on and provide for his family and give away anything over that. After he founded this business, he continued to keep that promise, and now gives away millions and millions to chruches and charities every year. He sends barges of grain to Africa to feed people, he gives to new church plants to help them get started, etc. Another couple of men he knows live on 10% of their income and give away 90%. Those are challenging stories, and most people cannot do that, but it is an example of each giving according to their own ability and honoring God through their giving.

My pastor talked to another man from another state where he used to live. My church has a heart for planting new churches. This man said he wants to continue to give to his local church, but outo f his abundence, he wants to give extra to support church plants and to spread the gospel.

There have been times when I give 10%. I think it is a good standard to strive for, but it is not the standard expected of us. The standard is to recognize all we have is from God, and to give as he leads. I think much of the time, God will lead to give over and above 10%. Each should give according to their ability to do so. A family with 7 children living on $40,000 a year may give sacrificially when they give 8%. A businessman who is making $1 million a year will not give sacrificially when he gives 10%. It may be sacrificial giving at a much higher percentage of his income.

Edited January 27, 2011 by kindofblue1977

[Guest]

What were the OT scriptures verified by our Lord and Savior?

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

John 19:39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
Oops! I meant...
John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

Edited January 27, 2011 by 1Tim115

[Covenanter]

To what extent is the whole of Zechariah fulfilled in Jesus - in his coming & ministry; his priesthood; arrival on the ass; betrayal; atoning death; sending of the Holy Spirit; AD 70 destruction; second coming; & NH&NE ?

Jesus & the Gospel writers specifically quote Zechariah. Is it valid, e.g. to lift sections to describe the deliverance of 1/3 of the Jews in a yet future tribulation, or should we see that as the deliverance of the believers before the destruction ?

7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Jesus had made his 'Olivet' prophecy of the destruction that would fall on the temple & Jerusalem & that generation. Before his betrayal, he prophesies the scattering of the sheep. (Mark 14:27) Was that simply the temporary scattering of the disciples, or the scattering that resulted in the spread of the Gospel? Acts 8:4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word. Then the believers were delivered from Jerusalem before the AD 70 destruction.

That 1/3 escaped the war, but were kept alive to continue their witness as citizens of the Jerusalem which is above.

That interpretation keeps Zechariah's prophecy within the Apostolic period of the NT, & within Jesus' own prophecies.

Edited January 27, 2011 by Covenanter

[HappyChristian]

I don't believe a set rule of giving 10% is required, as it was in the OT. However, the apostle Paul raises the bar, as does Jesus. Jesus praised not the Pharisees who gave according to the law in a showy fashion, but the widow who came and gave all she had. In Acts, the believers sold their possessions and gave to the common good of the church. In Paul's letters, each believer is to give joyfully according to their own abilities and as they have been led by the Holy Spirit. If we say that people should tithe 10%, does that perhaps not challenge people enough?

For example, my pastor knows a businessman in Washigton State who is making around $10 million a year. This man prayed years ago, before he was wealthy and he felt led to set the amount he and his wife could live on and provide for his family and give away anything over that. After he founded this business, he continued to keep that promise, and now gives away millions and millions to chruches and charities every year. He sends barges of grain to Africa to feed people, he gives to new church plants to help them get started, etc. Another couple of men he knows live on 10% of their income and give away 90%. Those are challenging stories, and most people cannot do that, but it is an example of each giving according to their own ability and honoring God through their giving.

My pastor talked to another man from another state where he used to live. My church has a heart for planting new churches. This man said he wants to continue to give to his local church, but outo f his abundence, he wants to give extra to support church plants and to spread the gospel.

There have been times when I give 10%. I think it is a good standard to strive for, but it is not the standard expected of us. The standard is to recognize all we have is from God, and to give as he leads. I think much of the time, God will lead to give over and above 10%. Each should give according to their ability to do so. A family with 7 children living on $40,000 a year may give sacrificially when they give 8%. A businessman who is making $1 million a year will not give sacrificially when he gives 10%. It may be sacrificial giving at a much higher percentage of his income.

Good post.

However, the apostle Paul raises the bar, as does Jesus.

We tithe. Our starting point is and always has been 10%...by that I mean: we don't consider it sacrificial until we give above 10%. (We do believe that 10% is the minimum, just to be clear where we stand)

[dantheman2]

Good post.

We tithe. Our starting point is and always has been 10%...by that I mean: we don't consider it sacrificial until we give above 10%. (We do believe that 10% is the minimum, just to be clear where we stand)

God doesn't set a minimum in His New Testament. Of course, that does not mean that I give a penny and expect God to be happy. He does tell us to give liberally and cheerfully.

[Guest]

What were the OT scriptures verified by our Lord and Savior?

Psalms 78:2-4
2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:
3 Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us.
4 We will not hide them from their children, shewing to the generation to come the praises of the LORD, and his strength, and his wonderful works that he hath done.

Matthew 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Matthew 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Are you getting the idea yet?

[Covenanter]

What were the OT scriptures verified by our Lord and Savior?

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

There is more ....

Zec 13:3 And it shall come to pass, [that] when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.

I love Zechariah - he has so much to say about the Lord Jesus Christ - he even, in Zec. 3, prophesies the name of Jesus, our great high priest. (Heb. Joshua, LXX Iesus)

13:3 could be alluded to in Jhn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. My implication is that as the true Seed of Abraham, he was despised, rejected & pierced.

Jhn 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

Jhn 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

[Guest]

There is more ....

Zec 13:3 And it shall come to pass, [that] when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.

I love Zechariah - he has so much to say about the Lord Jesus Christ - he even, in Zec. 3, prophesies the name of Jesus, our great high priest. (Heb. Joshua, LXX Iesus)

13:3 could be alluded to in Jhn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. My implication is that as the true Seed of Abraham, he was despised, rejected & pierced.

Jhn 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

Jhn 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Yes, as you say there are so many more!

Besides you and I, I wish others would bring out the ones they've found.

[Covenanter]

We can add 1Jo 5:6 ¶ This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. to the "pierced" texts.

[Covenanter]

Hebrews is full of such references to the real meaning of the OC rituals as they are fulfilled in Christ.

When we look at Revelation, the allusions are there, but with significant differences.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Exd 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and [how] I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.

Peter confirms that the Exodus text ultimately refers to all the redeemed, regardless of ethnicity.

1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

We can claim the promises to Israel in the OT, because our Lord Jesus Christ perfectly kept the covenant as our surety, & the promises are in him:

2Cr 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, [even] by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
20 For all the promises of God in him [are] yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

We read the OT Scriptures for our blessing & encouragement, etc.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.