Verses of cooperation

[no name joe]

Yet, you cannot ignore the verses that encourage love and compassion as well. There are religious finatics in every religion, those that take their religion and turn it into one of hate (ie Westboro Baptist Church). Yes there are Muslim finatics, but that does not define their whole religion. In fact, most are peaceful, loving people trying to do good and be filled with love and compassion. There are those in power in the Muslim world that use their religion and take passages to inflame passions of people. There are those that seek to turn the Muslim religion into political purposes and to gain political power. Osama bin Laden is one of these. Those who use religion to bring infliction on the innocent are not true followers of the religion, but use religion for his own purpose. In the Christian religion, those who bomb abortion clinics fall into this category. I could go on and on. I could easily take verses in the Bible and show a vengeful, wrathful God. God told Israel to kill every man woman and child of the foreign nations they conquored.......is that not similar to what you are quoting in the Koran? I will try to do some research on the historical context in which these words were written. I would not be surprised if it were in a time of war, or in a time of political turmoil. At any rate, the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful people, following what they believe to be true. Why is it necessary to demonize them and assult and insult their religion? That will not help them see the truth, but will just be divisive and make their hearts harder.

I quote a few verse I found in the Koran:

"O mankind! We created you from a male and a female and made you into nations and tribes that you may know and honor each other (not that you should despise one another). Indeed the most honorable of you in the sight of God is the most righteous." Chapter 49, Verse 13

"God does not forbid you to be kind and equitable to those who have neither fought against your faith nor driven you out of your homes. In fact God loves the equitable." Chapter 60, Verse 8

"Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord, and for a Garden (paradise) whose width is that of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous - Those who spend (freely), whether in prosperity or in adversity, who restrain anger and pardon men - for God loves those who do good." Chapter 3, Verses 133-134

"And among His signs is te his that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquility with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts); verily in that are signs for those who reflect." Chapter 30, Verse 21

[no name joe]

There is no ned to be fearful and disrespectful of people who hold to a different religion. I love how many say "they believe this or that" in invoke a fear of Muslms. Instead of spreading fear and disrespect, I think it would be much better to seek out a Muslim and talk to him about his religion. Seek to understand what they believe. Ask them about these passages, and ask how they seek to live out their fatih.

I have done so with Muslims, Budhists, and Hindus. It is very fascinating what I have learned. Though we believe very different things, we can find some common ground. One example is a talk I heard where Rick Warren, a Jewish Priest, a Budhist Monk, and a Muslim cleric came together to discuss the problem of AIDS. The all agreed that encouraging young people to wait until marriage for sex would reduce the AIDS problem, as would teaching men to respect and honor women. They all had very different beliefs, but could come together for a common goal. Another is poverty. I can go on and on.

It is easy to be divisive. It is easy to throw insults when we do not really know anyone of a different faith. BUt is that profitable? Does that accomplish anything? I don't think so.

[JerryNumbers]

I do not believe there ever was, or ever will be a Christian country, till the lord retrurns.

America was on the right track at one time, yet the devils crowd got involved and turned her in the other direction.

[1Timothy115]

Axis of Islam: Verses of Hate

Sura is Arabic for chapters. Here’s the bottom line, Suras 9 and 5, the most violent and vile of Suras are the last spoken by Muhammad, and they abrogate all previous verses in conflict with them. Do not allow Muslim apologists to deceive you by citing verses abrograted by verses in Suras 9 and 5.

Besides the fairly accurrate discussion at the site above, the guy teaches you how to read the Qur'an.

[John81]

Axis of Islam: Verses of Hate



Besides the fairly accurrate discussion at the site above, the guy teaches you how to read the Qur'an.

Absolutely! It must also be remembered that many other things have been put forth to supplement the Koran that are consider equal to the Koran. It's the "radical" Islam which Imans teach and this is because Islam was born as a "radical" religion. From it's inception, throughout its history and into today, Islam has been a religion of violence and force. The overiding precept within Islam is that EVERYONE must convert to Islam, either of their own accord or by force, or they must be made slaves of Muslims and eventually be put to death. Every nation and every person, according to Islamic teaching, must become Muslim and Muslims are to use whatever means they deem necessary to bring this about. Throughout the life of Islam, violence and force has been their favorite means of spreading Islam.

Why some are so willing to ignore or overlook the facts I can't say, but it's the "peaceful, moderate" Muslims which enable the "radical Muslims" to carry on war against anyone deemed to be an "enemy of Islam". The "peaceful, moderate" Muslims are the ones who fund the "radicals", they are the ones who help to provide them with cover, run screens of cover for them, promote false propaganda, and provide a recruiting ground for the "radicals".

[no name joe]

Absolutely! It must also be remembered that many other things have been put forth to supplement the Koran that are consider equal to the Koran. It's the "radical" Islam which Imans teach and this is because Islam was born as a "radical" religion. From it's inception, throughout its history and into today, Islam has been a religion of violence and force. The overiding precept within Islam is that EVERYONE must convert to Islam, either of their own accord or by force, or they must be made slaves of Muslims and eventually be put to death. Every nation and every person, according to Islamic teaching, must become Muslim and Muslims are to use whatever means they deem necessary to bring this about. Throughout the life of Islam, violence and force has been their favorite means of spreading Islam.

Why some are so willing to ignore or overlook the facts I can't say, but it's the "peaceful, moderate" Muslims which enable the "radical Muslims" to carry on war against anyone deemed to be an "enemy of Islam". The "peaceful, moderate" Muslims are the ones who fund the "radicals", they are the ones who help to provide them with cover, run screens of cover for them, promote false propaganda, and provide a recruiting ground for the "radicals".

And Christianity doesn't have a history of violence? Just look at the Crusades.

[John81]

And Christianity doesn't have a history of violence? Just look at the Crusades.

The Crusades were Catholic, not Christian. The Word of God nowhere calls for the extermination of all non-Christians and nowhere commands forced conversions.

[no name joe]

The Crusades were Catholic, not Christian. The Word of God nowhere calls for the extermination of all non-Christians and nowhere commands forced conversions.

He did with the nation of Isreal. He commanded them to kill ever man, woman, child and creature when they took the land.

The Crusades were done in the name of Christianity. For many years, Catholicism was the only CHristianity. As the church grew and spread, it became corrupt and those in political power begain to use the Church and Chrisitian teachings for political purposes. Islam is being distorted many times in the same way.

In early church history, people begain meeting in houses (New Testament times). They grew to congregations. The congregations were overseen by the apostles, such as Paul. After the death of apostles, the church spread and stayed small, as persecution continued. Constentine adopted Christianity as the State religion, and at that point, CHristianity took off and grew exceedingly. It grew along with the Roman Empire. During this time, continuing the apostoic tradition, bishops replaced apostles as the overseers of the church. Potlical power and religious power in Christianity coincided for a time. The Roman empire becmae too large, and there was a divide between the Eastern Empire and Western Empire around 1000 A.D. (a little after). Ultimately, there was a split in power. The eastern church became the Eastern Orthodoxy Church, and the Western Church became the Roman Catholic Chruch. The Rmoan Catholic Church was the chruch. There were no denominations. Are you saying there was no Christianity during this time? There was Christinaity found in the church, though those in political power abused the Church and it became corrupt. They undertook the Crusades to kill Muslims and pagans in the name of Christ.

Later, Luther led the way to reform the church. This began the Protestant Reformation, and denominations have splintered since then. Your church, has roots in the Roman Catholic Church. We all do. It is an inescapable part of Christian history. Some churches that broke away so reected the Church that they rejected everything. Others reformed doctrine, but kept some of the forms of worship, etc.

My point is, The Roman Catholic Church is part of history. During th Crusades, they were Christianity, though Christianity was being abused. Islam is abused in much the same way in using religion to further political purposes. You say Christianity cannot be used to promote violence? Many who have bombed abortion clinics have done so in the name of Christ. Many things can be done in his name that he would not approve of. Islam is no different. Edited January 20, 2011 by kindofblue1977

[HappyChristian]

The Church was the only Christianity? Not so, kob. There have always been those who believe in Christ and Christ alone. And just because something is done in the name of Christianity doesn't mean it's truly Christian.

Baptist beliefs do NOT have their roots in Catholicism. While they may not always have called themselves Baptist, there have been believers since WAY before the RCC who believe what Baptists do.

[John81]

The Church was the only Christianity? Not so, kob. There have always been those who believe in Christ and Christ alone. And just because something is done in the name of Christianity doesn't mean it's truly Christian.

Baptist beliefs do NOT have their roots in Catholicism. While they may not always have called themselves Baptist, there have been believers since WAY before the RCC who believe what Baptists do.

Very true.

Also, it was the Jews, not Christians, who were commanded to wipe out CERTAIN peoples, and them only, as an act of God's righteous judgement upon those CERTAIN people. Christianity didn't come about until several thousand years later.

The RCC has never been truly Christian nor did they ever represent true Christians or Christianity. The RCC is a satanic counterfit which has been used of the devil to try and discredit Christianity while at the same time being used to try and exterminate all true Christians for centuries.

True Christianity is spread only by peaceful means of telling others the Gospel message. Violence or force to spread Christianity is totally unscriptural.

[no name joe]

Church history, all of it, has its roots in the Catholic church. I am not sure how you can say that it does not. of course, the foundation of the Church is Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church contributed so much to the expansion of Christianaity. The church grew and evolved. It began on the day of Pentecost, spread n small groups through persecution, and the apostles oversaw the growth and oversaw the NT Church. By the second century, after the death of the apostles, bishops oversaw the churches. It evolved until Contantine declared it the official religion. It is a clear, history of succession. The Anglicans broke from Catholics. It too became corrupt as political forces tried to use religion. There were those who wanted to Separate from teh Church of England, the Separatists, and those who wanted merely to reform and purify the church, Puritans. A group of separatists went to the Netherlands (if my memory serves me correctly), and a dspute arose over inant baptist. Those who thought they needed to be rebaptized were the Anabaptists. Then the mode of baptism came into debate. Many of the Anabaptists completely reformed the way they did things, rejecting all of their tradition (such as modern Baptists follow this line). Others reformed theology, but kept some traditino (Presbyterians, Methodists are exmples).

Christianity and the church are integrally related. I am not sure how you can say that some churches have no roots in the Catholic Church. There is a clear progression through history. The New Testament church grew. It was overseen first by apostles, then by biships. This evolved into what we know as the Roman Catholic Church. It was THE church for centuries. Then there was a break wtih the East and West. THen the Reormation occurs. Then the Anglican church broke from the Catholic church. Then further divisions occur.

Salvation can be found aprart from teh church, but the church is an integral part of every believers life. We all have common roots. The one thing we all agree on is that salvation is found in Christ, through his death and ressurection.

Back to the main point, radical Islam is a problem and a huge threat. I just do not see how you can characterize an entire religion as violent, when in fact, the vast majority are not.

Edited January 20, 2011 by kindofblue1977

[John81]

Church history, all of it, has its roots in the Catholic church. I am not sure how you can say that it does not. of course, the foundation of the Church is Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church contributed so much to the expansion of Christianaity. The church grew and evolved. It began on the day of Pentecost, spread n small groups through persecution, and the apostles oversaw the growth and oversaw the NT Church. By the second century, after the death of the apostles, bishops oversaw the churches. It evolved until Contantine declared it the official religion. It is a clear, history of succession. The Anglicans broke from Catholics. It too became corrupt as political forces tried to use religion. There were those who wanted to Separate from teh Church of England, the Separatists, and those who wanted merely to reform and purify the church, Puritans. A group of separatists went to the Netherlands (if my memory serves me correctly), and a dspute arose over inant baptist. Those who thought they needed to be rebaptized were the Anabaptists. Then the mode of baptism came into debate. Many of the Anabaptists completely reformed the way they did things, rejecting all of their tradition (such as modern Baptists follow this line). Others reformed theology, but kept some traditino (Presbyterians, Methodists are exmples).

Christianity and the church are integrally related. I am not sure how you can say that some churches have no roots in the Catholic Church. There is a clear progression through history. The New Testament church grew. It was overseen first by apostles, then by biships. This evolved into what we know as the Roman Catholic Church. It was THE church for centuries. Then there was a break wtih the East and West. THen the Reormation occurs. Then the Anglican church broke from the Catholic church. Then further divisions occur.

Salvation can be found aprart from teh church, but the church is an integral part of every believers life. We all have common roots. The one thing we all agree on is that salvation is found in Christ, through his death and ressurection.

Back to the main point, radical Islam is a problem and a huge threat. I just do not see how you can characterize an entire religion as violent, when in fact, the vast majority are not.

You need to do some serious study. The RCC spread catholicism, NOT Christianity. The RCC persecuted and murdered true Christians.

There were always true Christians who existed before the RCC and then outside the RCC. One RCC Bishop commented during the time of the Reformation that had the RCC not been persecuting and killing Baptists for the past several hundred years, the Reformation would have been much worse for the RCC.

[John81]

As to Islam, it's founder used violence to spread Islam, the "holy book" of Islam teaches violence, forced conversion, enslavement of non-Muslims, murder of non-Muslims and that all Muslims must do what they can to spread Islam by any and all means until every nation and person is Muslim. The entire history of Islam, from inception to today is marked by violence because that is what Islam teaches.

[HappyChristian]

Kob, you are so far off from when the Catholic Church began. And it contributed nothing to the spread of Christianity - other than by persecuting true Christians, people saw the testimonies and turned away from the RCC and to Christ.

What evolved into the RCC was a adulteration of Christianity mixed with Babylonian paganism (check into its history a bit more and you'll see that it was the government that combined the two and convinced some people it was Christian...)

Baptism by immersion was THE mode of baptism until the Catholic church introduced sprinkling (pouring) - 1311. It is absolute falsehood that the Catholic church began with Christ.

I never said that some churches have no roots in the Catholic church - I said Baptists don't. The New Testament church did grow. And the ungodly rulers of Rome saw a chance to subvert Christians by combining paganism with it, thus creating the RCC. But not everyone bowed the knee. Check it out, kob. Yes, the East and West broke from each other - creating orthodox churches. Yes, the Anglican church broke away from it. But Baptist were never part of that mixture.

We do have common roots - in Christ and His Word, His salvation. Not in the RCC.

The goal of Islam is world-wide domination. Any way they can do it. I agree, not everyone who is a Muslim is violent, just as not every member of the RCC was in favor of the Crusades.

[1Timothy115]

The Lost Their Arguments

Witnessing to the lost I’ve heard all kinds of arguments against the truth from the Bible. I’m sure that many here have heard them too. So, what are some of these arguments we’ve heard, how do we recognize them, and what is the answer to them.

1. Christianity has a history of killing, for instance, the Canaanites.
The lost refer to the O.T. where God instructs the Israelites to “utterly destroy them” that is, the inhabitants of Canaan. (Deut. 7:1-2.)

The lost point this out as evidence of a mean God. In fact, they point to this to argue that God is vengeful and wrathful; just down right mean.

Were the Canaanites sinless and innocent of God’s wrath? No, however God allowed them to remain throughout the captivity in Egypt. Maybe some of the inhabitants were God fearing, we don’t know for sure. “But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.” (Gen. 15:16)

We do know the Canaanites have knowledge of God. “And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.” (Gen. 14:18)

Also, Rahab was well aware of God, and made a confession before the spies. “For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt” “for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.” (Joshua 2:10,11)

So as you see their argument is like wax and melts under the intensity of God’s word.

2. Religions are good and have good people in them.
The lost like to refer to any good they might find with respect to the basis of these religions. People in religions are eternally lost. There are many religions but only one Gospel. As Christians we should never seek to find some good in religion. Yes, it’s right to share the Gospel with religions but, it’s never right to provide religions with a feeling of justification. Why? Because we know they are sentencing their people to a literal hell.

If they seek to destroy our practice of faith in Jesus Christ we must be aware of what they are about and how they go about attempting this. What does their religious literature teach with respect to Christianity? This would be good information to know.

3. Look at the results down through the ages of cruelty from Christianity.
The lost often point to the European dark ages and the Crusades as evidence of just how cruel Christianity is. However, they omit the ones suffering the most cruelty were Christians worshipping in spirit and in truth. They omit how the powerful churches martyred the Christian faithful in horrible ways. They omit how the hoards of Muslims persecuted any native Christians they found. They omit the most notorious persecutor of Christians (the Catholic Church) was the instigator of the Crusades. "Christians, hasten to help your brothers in the East, for they are being attacked. Arm for the rescue of Jerusalem under your captain Christ. Wear his cross as your badge. If you are killed your sins will be pardoned." Pope Urban II in 1095.

The requirement of conquering Muslims was to convert to Islam or pay tribute. If you pay tribute you will be treated as second class citizens.