You Will Eat Your Dispensations and You Will Like Them!

[Brother Rick]

Yes, after Christ was offered to Israel He would still have to be cut off, and the time of JacOB's Trouble would still have to take place. The invatation was still to the nation of Israel in the book of Acts, and if they would have accepted it at some point there wouldn't have been a 2,000 year Church Age.

[Covenanter]

Yes, after Christ was offered to Israel He would still have to be cut off, and the time of JacOB's Trouble would still have to take place. The invatation was still to the nation of Israel in the book of Acts, and if they would have accepted it at some point there wouldn't have been a 2,000 year Church Age.

Offer?
Invitation?
there wouldn't have been a 2,000 year Church Age?
God's "plan B"?

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.

Assertions without Scripture support are of no value.
Why don't you comment on Hebrews? Or Stephen?

[Invicta]

Yes, after Christ was offered to Israel He would still have to be cut off, and the time of JacOB's Trouble would still have to take place. The invatation was still to the nation of Israel in the book of Acts, and if they would have accepted it at some point there wouldn't have been a 2,000 year Church Age.

Then many Old Testament prophecis would have been false, including: Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself


No. There was no plan B. What happened was what was prophecied and that was God's plan.

[John81]

Then many Old Testament prophecis would have been false, including: Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself


No. There was no plan B. What happened was what was prophecied and that was God's plan.

This is what it comes down to for me. God knows everything, which means He knew the Jews would reject Christ. Knowing this, God gave us the appropriate prophecies in His Word.

If the Jews could have actually accepted Christ and made those other prophecies null and void, such would have invalidated the Word of God.

[rancher824]

Just wondering, since it has been stated that any future temple would be disgusting to God because of Christ having made the supreme sacrifice on calvary, at what time were the christian jews to stop going to the temple to do sacrifices? Was it right after the crucifiction and resurrection, or were they to continue until the destruction in 70 ad?

[Wilchbla]

Hello Rick

You have said continually that the temple shown to Ezekiel was not thte same dimensions as the second temple. How do you know? He had to show the dimensions to the Jews of his day. What would be the point of that if that was not the plan that they had to use for the 2nd temple?

All you do is have to read the passages and you will see they are not the same. Try reading Ezekiel 40-44 for once and compare it to the instructions in the law.

[Invicta]

All you do is have to read the passages and you will see they are not the same. Try reading Ezekiel 40-44 for once and compare it to the instructions in the law.

I am not quite sure I understand you, The instrucions given to Moses was for the tabernacle. David gave instructions to Solomon for the dimensions af the first temple. Ezekiel was given instructions for the 2nd temple, which was smaller than the first. Herod built the third temple as he considered the 2nd was too small. At the time of Jesus it was not completed, the Jews told Jesus it had been 46 years in construction. The temple was completed during the reign of Nero just a few years before it was destroyed. In spite of that, Jesus called it "My Father's house." But later he seemed to disown it when he said "Your house is left to you desolate." It's doom was certain from that time on and the desolation was carried out but the abomination of the Roman armies.

[Invicta]

This is what it comes down to for me. God knows everything, which means He knew the Jews would reject Christ. Knowing this, God gave us the appropriate prophecies in His Word.

If the Jews could have actually accepted Christ and made those other prophecies null and void, such would have invalidated the Word of God.

When the Jews tried to make Jesus king, he rejected it. If he had not died, there would be no salvation for Jew or Gentile, for the blood of animals, could not save anyone. The sacrifices were only types of the true sacrifice.

[Invicta]

Sorry, post duplicated.

Edited October 25, 2010 by Invicta

[John81]

When the Jews tried to make Jesus king, he rejected it. If he had not died, there would be no salvation for Jew or Gentile, for the blood of animals, could not save anyone. The sacrifices were only types of the true sacrifice.

Absolutely.

[John81]

Just wondering, since it has been stated that any future temple would be disgusting to God because of Christ having made the supreme sacrifice on calvary, at what time were the christian jews to stop going to the temple to do sacrifices? Was it right after the crucifiction and resurrection, or were they to continue until the destruction in 70 ad?

Christ was the final sacrifice. No sacrifices were necessary or acceptable after that.

[Brother Rick]

Offer?
Invitation?
there wouldn't have been a 2,000 year Church Age?
God's "plan B"?

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.

Assertions without Scripture support are of no value.
Why don't you comment on Hebrews? Or Stephen?

Sure thing, I'll do that and more.

Hebrews was written to Jews to show them of "better things". While their sins were forgiven and remitted under the Old Testament sacrifices (Hebrews 9:22, Lev. 4:26,31,35; 5:10; 19:22), the final sacrifice was in Christ and it took their sins away permanently in the eyes of God to where they could go from Paradise to Heaven (Luke 16, Eph 4:8-10). Nothing in Hebrews negates future sacrifices in memorial of Christ sacrifice, just as we have communion as a memorial today.

OBviously, God offered the kingdom to Israel when Jesus was here. I wouldn't expect a Calvinist to believe that God is honest when He offers an invitation, but the rest of us believe God means what He says when He offers something to people.

Matt. 23:37, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

The message was solely to the Jews in Matthew 10, and it was confirmed by signs and wonders, which is how God deals with Israel in the Bible (I Cor. 1:22). The prOBlem the Jews had was they wanted the physical blessings of a Davidic kingdom without repenting first. Hence, Matthew 6:33, "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."

I never said that there was a way around Calvary for Jesus, and if someone else did he was wrong. Christ was prophesied to be rejected by His brethren and that could have applied to part of Israel, or all of Israel. As it turned out, He was rejected by part of Israel.

Following the resurrection, the offer of a kingdom was still to Israel. This is why throughout the book of Acts there are still apostolic signs and wonders, which are something for Jews (I Cor. 1:22). The Jews repeatedly reject the gospel, and over the course of Acts it goes from the Jews to the Gentiles.

Acts 13:46, "Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles."

Acts 28:28, "Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it."

We'll back up a little at this point and go back to what the disciples asked at the ascension:

Acts 1:6-11, "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

We see here that even after Christ was rejected of the Jews, and Jesus has spent 40 days with the Apostles, the question of a kingdom for Israel is foremost on their minds. If Israel was to never have the kingdom, Jesus would have told them so - and He didn't. Why would He play with the hearts of these men for 40 days after His resurrection and not tell them "the truth", that the kingdom prophesied to them since Abraham, the kingdom that all of Israel yearned for - was for naught? Because the kingdom IS coming to Israel one day.

Jesus tells them that it's not for them to know the times and seasons - NOT that the kingdom will never come to Israel ever. Just as we do not know the day of the Rapture, the disciples were not to know when the kingdom would come. They were to bring about the message of Christ's resurrection. Angels come and tell the men of the urgency of this, and that Jesus Christ will return.

The next major event is Peter preaching to a bunch of Jews and Jewish proselytes at Pentecost (Acts 2:10). He tells them that they killed their Messiah who was "...a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders..." (Acts 2:22). The sign of tongues is given to demonstrate to Jews that the message is true. They are told to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins - not for as in "to receive" but for as in "because of" (jump FOR joy). This baptism was very similar to John the Baptist's baptism; it was a national baptism to identify the Jewish person with their Messiah. The baptism did not save anyone. Israel is looking good at this point, people are getting saved.

Next chapter in Acts, Peter is at it again healing someone in the eyes of Israel (Acts 3:12) and preaching about their Messiah. And then he says something very interesting...

Acts 3:18-20, "But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:"

Peter reveals something very interesting here. He tells them that if they repent their sins will be blotted out... but not then. Their sins will be blotted out "when the times of refreshing shall come". Then in the very next verse it is explains that the "times of refreshing" is when Jesus Christ will come. Now why in the world would someone repent now but not get their sins blotted out until Jesus Christ returned?

It's because the blotting out was not an individual salvation, it was a NATIONAL ONE for the entire nation of Israel. If the nation repented, their sins would be blotted out, and God would send Jesus.

Acts 4:8, Peter is once again preaching to Israel and doing miracles, which as I remind you, that miracles are God's way of proving Himself to Jews in the Bible.

In Acts 7, a major shift occurs. Stephen is preaching, once again to a bunch of Jewish leaders, and they reject the message and kill him. Immediately following that the message begins to shift to the Gentiles. In Acts 8 a black man is saved. In Acts 9 Paul is saved, and his ministry is primarily to the Gentiles. In Acts 10 an Italian is saved. In the remainder of the book of Acts we see the message go from a primarily Jewish gospel to a primarily Gentile gospel. The gospel is the same, the recipients are different, and the offer of a kingdom fades away as the signs and wonders faded away as well.

Brother, I don't expect you to believe any of this. I wrote this to answer your question and for anyone else reading this thread. I don't expect anyone who flatly rejects the OBvious literalness of the entire book of Revelation in light of Jesus' admonition that the Tribulation is something that Israel had never seen before (Matthew 24:21) to get this. I also don't expect someone who thinks the Judgment Seat of Christ (I Cor. 3), the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev. 20), and the Judgment of the Nations (Matt. 25) to be the same thing to get this. I don't expect someone who thinks that the Battle of Armageddon (Rev. 19) and the Battle of Gog and Magog (Rev. 20) to be the same to get this. I don't expect someone, who after being clearly shown the difference, who refuses to see the difference between the Millennium and the Everlasting Kingdom to get this. And we're just getting started.

Forgive me if I sound condescending, I'm not trying to, I'm being honest. You asked a very technical question and I did my best to answer it. Learning must be done by rightly dividing (II Tim. 2:15) and line upon line (Is. 28:13), and I don't expect to have everything figured out this side of eternity. You're my brother in Christ and as such I love you, but you do a horrible jOB of rightly dividing the Scriptures as evidenced by the last paragraph. From my perspective , we keep doing the same tedious things here, I give you 5-10 points, you ignore all of them and go after the weakest one. Then I try to prop up the one you attacked and remind you of the other 4-9. Rinse and repeat, round and round we go.

I'm bowing out of this discussion, in fact I'm ending it now as it's getting tedious and we both keep saying the same things. I think anyone reading this will see both our sides clearly and distinctly. 87 posts, mostly between two people, is plenty more than enough.

God bless, brother.

Proverbs 10:19, "In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise." Edited October 25, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[Covenanter]

View PostCovenanter, on 23 OctOBer 2010 - 04:56 PM, said:

View PostRick Schworer, on 23 OctOBer 2010 - 01:50 AM, said:
Yes, after Christ was offered to Israel He would still have to be cut off, and the time of JacOB's Trouble would still have to take place. The invitation was still to the nation of Israel in the book of Acts, and if they would have accepted it at some point there wouldn't have been a 2,000 year Church Age.

Offer?
Invitation?
there wouldn't have been a 2,000 year Church Age?
God's "plan B"?

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.

Assertions without Scripture support are of no value.
Why don't you comment on Hebrews? Or Stephen?