You Will Eat Your Dispensations and You Will Like Them!

[Invicta]

Regardless, I don’t want to get drawn into a tedious discussion on Daniel’s 70 weeks, So you believe that bible study is tedious? I just reiterate the fact that when God tells people a specific time period, as He did in the three examples I gave you, God keeps His word about that time period. There is nothing vague or ambiguous about it, and saying that Christ will rule for 1,000 years SIX TIMES in Revelation 20 is very specific. Yes when he said 70 weeks, he meant 70 weeks.

The point is, Daniel wrote the weeks as if the Jews accepted Christ. If they did, there would have been no gap. They did not, so that is why there is a gap in time.

That is the teaching of Scofield and it is false. "When Christ appeared to the Jewish people, the next thing in the order of revelation as it then stood, should have been the setting up of the Davidic kingdom." (Scofield Ref Bible.) Do not believe that, it is a false teaching.

Dan 9 teaches that Messiah would be cut off, Isaiah says the same, as do many of the psalms. The lamb was slain ffrom the foundation of the world. God did not have a plan B. His plan was that Christ should die otherwise there could be no salvation for any one. Edited October 22, 2010 by Invicta

[John81]

That is the teaching of Scofield and it is false. "When Christ appeared to the Jewish people, the next thing in the order of revelation as it then stood, should have been the setting up of the Davidic kingdom." (Scofield Ref Bible.) Do not believe that, it is a false teaching.

Dan 9 teaches that Messiah would be cut off, Isaiah says the same, as do many of the psalms. The lamb was slain ffrom the foundation of the world. God did not have a plan B. His plan was that Christ should die otherwise there could be no salvation for any one.

That's a teaching I've wrestled with. In many churches this is taught as if undeniable fact so it can be easy to miss until one studies it out on their own.

[Invicta]

Regardless, I don’t want to get drawn into a tedious discussion on Daniel’s 70 weeks

I have met many dispensationalists who say something like that. One recently said to me, shouted rather, "You don't believe the scripture." By the ime I tried to say that I did believe the scripture, but not his interpretation of it, he had stormed off.

Philip Mauro writing in about 1923, said he had once believed that new teaching (dispensationalism) and had a sense of superiority over those who did not accept it. Later, he said that following extensive bible study he rejected the teaching. He said that at that time there were many who could remember the days before that teaching arrived. It arrived in the USA later than the UK, where it started about 1825 in the protestant church but did not catch on in the USA at first. The new teaching required a new bible and Scofield supplied it. He was a fraudulent lawyer who defrauded his mother in law of her life savings and went to gaol for fraud, but his biggest fraud was the Scofield Reference Bible. Edited October 22, 2010 by Invicta

[Covenanter]

Melchizedek

[John81]

Melchizedek

Featured prominently in Hebrews.

[Brother Rick]

Featured prominently in Hebrews.

And another subject of much debate.

[Covenanter]

Tonight's meeting cancelled - our host's m-i-l is in hospital, very disturbed & not eating or talking.

A few weeks ago she was thanking Jesus for healing - no need for medicines, for several conditions including thyroid & diabetes. A victim of charismatic TV.
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Posts #40, #42, and #46 haven't been dealt with.

These will fall into place when we get the principles right. I'm trying to focus on what I consider primary points. So are you. I hear what you are saying, but my posts are very long already.

Whether the fact that the 70 weeks & 40 years indicates that the 1,000 years has to be is something we have both considered, & we disagree.

The survival of the Jews is significant to you but not me - I am much more concerned with the survival of believers through 2,000 years of persecution. If God has preserved a people in rebellion for saving some in end times, then that is included in NT prophecy. Restoring the nation to the land is not in NT prophecy.

What MUST be settled is the temple, its purpose, & future sacrifices. In the New Covenant, there is no place for a man-made temple. The NC temple is the redeemed people of God. (Eph. 2, 1 Pet. 2)

You seem to be confused as to whether in Isaiah 65-66, the NH&NE refers to the millennium or the NH&NE. You even see the sacrifices condemned in Is. 66 as proving that sacrifices are offered in a future temple.

As far as the temple goes, it's prophesied clearly in the Old Testament passages and Rev. 11. The last chapter of Isaiah speaks of people offering sacrifices in the Millennium. You think it's repugnant - God doesn't. It's in the Bible whether you like it or not.

Please see my #54. I'll move on to Hebrews then.

As for your assertion:

There's a lot of discussion and a lot of different ideas on what the purpose of the temple will be in the Millennium. Regardless, it is there. Revelation was written in 90 AD, so the temple wasn't standing in Jerusalem at that time. This verse speaks of a time in which God's throne will be placed amongst the children of Israel for ever and they will never defile it again. The place of the throne (Jerusalem) is forever, the temple is not.

A late date for Revelation has very dubious support - mainly from Irenaeus (AD 180) quoted in Latin translation in the 4th C, & it is ambiguous - was John seen or his vision?
For a full discussion see: Dating the Book of Revelation

[Covenanter]

Melchizedek the ONLY king & priest in the OT, apart from the prophesied Christ in Zec. 6:9ff - Joshua, the Branch. I do not consider any doubt that he is a pre-incarnation appearance of Lord Jesus Christ.

As Abraham said to the king of Sodom: Gen 14:22 And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth, We can sing of him in Psalm 110, & Jesus refers to that Psalm in Mat. 22.

According to Hebrews, all priests & their sacrifices were copies of a heavenly pattern:

Hbr 7:11 ¶ If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Hbr 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, [that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6 But now hath he OBtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

The temple prophecies clearly relate to the heavenly priesthood of Christ, rather than any future man-made temple. The tabernacle was made according to the heavenly pattern.

The references to the temple of God in 2 Thes. 2 & Rev. 11 must be considered as referring to the Jerusalem temple, still standing, but doomed.

When Hebrews was written: Hbr 13:10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of [our] lips giving thanks to his name.
16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

The OT prophecies cannot be taken as prophecies of a future man-made temple without violating the NC - the Everlasting Covenant - in Jesus' blood:
Hbr 13:20 ¶ Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Edited October 22, 2010 by Covenanter

[Brother Rick]

New Testament prophecy primarily deals with who the New Testament was primarily adressed to, those within the body of Christ. No where in the New Testament does God revoke His promises of a land grant to Israel. Yes, the Gentiles are grafted in and spiritually of Abraham's seed, but that doesn't negate the Old Testament physical promises. We are at deadlock on this one too, I am amazed that you completly dismiss the miracoulous survability of the Jewish race.

Mal. 3:6, "For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of JacOB are not consumed."

Gen 13:15, "For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever."

Gen 26:3-4, "Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
4) And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;"

Gen 48:4, "And said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession."

Ex. 32:13, "Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever."

Rom. 11:11, 25, 26, "I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from JacOB:
27) As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Concerning the temple, future sacrifices could just as well be a memorial for Calvary just as they were a picture of it in the Old Testament. Ezekiel's temple is literal and not seen as of yet. It is described in painstaking detail from the wall, court, and santuary, there's nothing in the text that would lead someone to the conclusion that it is symbolic as you'll find with the woman in Rev. 12, the whore in Rev. 17, or Daniel's beasts. You have to create something that's not in the text to make it symbolic, anyone reading it would identify it as the same way God describes the tabernacle - only Ezekiel's temple hasn't been built yet.

Ez. 43:10-13, "Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
11) And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write [it] in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.
12) This [is] the law of the house; Upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about [shall be] most holy. Behold, this [is] the law of the house.
13) And these [are] the measures of the altar after the cubits: The cubit [is] a cubit and an hand breadth; even the bottom [shall be] a cubit, and the breadth a cubit, and the border thereof by the edge thereof round about [shall be] a span: and this [shall be] the higher place of the altar."

Is. 2:2-3, "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3) And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of JacOB; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem."

Edited October 22, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[Covenanter]

New Testament prophecy primarily deals with who the New Testament was primarily adressed to, those within the body of Christ. No where in the New Testament does God revoke His promises of a land grant to Israel. Yes, the Gentiles are grafted in and spiritually of Abraham's seed, but that doesn't negate the Old Testament physical promises.

I do recommend a careful study of Hebrews. He shows the significance of all the OT rituals, promises & warnings, & how they are made OBsolete by Christ & the New Covenant. There is nothing to indicate a rebuilding of the old system. It is FINISHED!

Heb. 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, OBeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and JacOB, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

The fulfilment of the land promises is heavenly. Abraham's expectation is clear - after all he met Jesus:

Jhn 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

[Covenanter]

Act 7:17 ¶ But when the time of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt,

37 ¶ This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and [with] our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

44 ¶ Our fathers had the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness, as he had appointed, speaking unto Moses, that he should make it according to the fashion that he had seen.

48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet,
49 Heaven [is] my throne, and earth [is] my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what [is] the place of my rest?
50 Hath not my hand made all these things?
51 ¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.

The Holy Spirit declares the Jews uncircumcised. The OC is finished & the temple & its worship OBsolete.

You are relying on OT prophecies but these were all perfected in Christ.

Refute what I write from the NT. After his resurrection, Jesus said:

Luk 24:44 ¶ And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

[Brother Rick]

I do recommend a careful study of Hebrews. He shows the significance of all the OT rituals, promises & warnings, & how they are made OBsolete by Christ & the New Covenant. There is nothing to indicate a rebuilding of the old system. It is FINISHED!

I agree, the old system is finished, the blood of Jesus Christ redeems and now people go to Heaven instead of Paradise.

That doesn't negate a future temple with sacrifices in memorial to Calvary, and nothing in the New Testament certainly negates the everlasting land grant to Abraham's seed by God (Post #69).

Still a lot of things in post #55 you've left hanging, such as the sea, death and 100 year old children, the beloved city, etc. Edited October 22, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[Invicta]

Hello Rick

You have said continually that the temple shown to Ezekiel was not thte same dimensions as the second temple. How do you know? He had to show the dimensions to the Jews of his day. What would be the point of that if that was not the plan that they had to use for the 2nd temple?

Edited October 22, 2010 by Invicta

[Brother Rick]

Hello Rick

You have said continually that the temple shown to Ezekiel was not thte same dimensions as the second temple. How do you know? He had to show the dimensions to the Jews of his day. What would be the point of that if that was not the plan that they had to use for the 2nd temple?

I never said they weren't the same size, I don't know much about the Ezekiel temple to be honest with you. The nitty, gritty details of his temple are hard for me to stay focused on, but it is clearly a future tempe as Ezekiel's temple was filled with the Shekanah glory, something that hasn't been in any Jewish temple since Solomon's.

Ez. 43:1-5, "Afterward he brought me to the gate, [even] the gate that looketh toward the east:
2) And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice [was] like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory.
3) And [it was] according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, [even] according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions [were] like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face.
4) And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect [is] toward the east.
5) So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house."

[Invicta]

That's a teaching I've wrestled with. In many churches this is taught as if undeniable fact so it can be easy to miss until one studies it out on their own.

Luke 24:25. Then he said unto them. O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken 26. Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to have entered into his glory? 27. And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures, the things concerning himself.

See also verses 44-48.