Is this really church?

[anime4christ]

What do you guys think about this? I've had this opinion for perhaps a year now. What are the Biblical passages we have that support what we call "church"?

[John81]

What do you guys think about this? I've had this opinion for perhaps a year now. What are the Biblical passages we have that support what we call "church"?

Could you summarize this or at least point to what is most important to listen to? I don't have an hour to listen to this anytime soon.

[anime4christ]

I think the whole thing is worth a watch, but the most important part is from 34:00 to 53:00. 19 minutes.

[John81]

Okay, I've finally listened to the entire message. Chan touched on some of this in his book "Crazy Love" (have you read that book?).

What specifically are you asking, considering or wanting to discuss? (I'd rather not just assume I know)

[trc123]

I watched and listened to the entire sermon. He makes some very relevant and pertinent points that are valid.

[anime4christ]

Okay, I've finally listened to the entire message. Chan touched on some of this in his book "Crazy Love" (have you read that book?).

What specifically are you asking, considering or wanting to discuss? (I'd rather not just assume I know)

I haven't read the book yet, but I might after I finish some other ones I'm reading right now (Future Grace by John Piper and I might be starting Don't Waste Your Life by John Piper as well soon). What I'd like to discuss is how we define "church" and on what grounds.

[John81]

I haven't read the book yet, but I might after I finish some other ones I'm reading right now (Future Grace by John Piper and I might be starting Don't Waste Your Life by John Piper as well soon). What I'd like to discuss is how we define "church" and on what grounds.

I've never read anything by Piper so it would be helpful if you added a review in the book review section if you could. Chan's book "Crazy Love" is worth the reading.

Church in different parts of the world is defined differently. Part of this is due to culture, part due to whether it's a Western or Westernized nation or in a more "third world" setting, etc.

Of course it also makes a difference as to whether we are talking about churches that are made up of biblical Christians with born again pastors or just any "Christian" church too.

In any case, church was never meant to be simply a building or even a gathering once or twice a week for preaching and singing and that's it. Of course here in America that's what many (most?) churches have become. Some have added more entertainment, but that's not really biblical.

The local church should be a body of believers who do gather regularly for edification and worship, and having a regular meeting place is highly beneficial for this, but it should be much more. Christians are to be more than spirtual family, we are to act like a proper, good family. Local Christians should be friends, should hold Bible studies together, should celebrate good times together, help one another and go through the bad times together, should share meals and outings together, should share the Gospel with others and look for ways to help those around them...

This seems to be a difficult thing to achieve here in America with even actual families pulled apart and kept separated by jOBs, schooling, extracurricular activities, family matters, etc.

Our pastor brings forth tangible ways we can help others as a church. For two months we will collect money, above and beyond our regular giving to the church, for a special project. Earlier in the year we gathered enough money to drill two water wells in Africa. We are currently gathering money to help two small local schools buy some supplies (there have been massive budget cuts to the schools and whatever supplies we raise will go to these two schools in Jesus name). We will prOBably be raising money for a generator for a school in India which trains native pastors later this year and perhaps for a water well for a mountain tribe who is now 60% Christian due to the sacrifices of some local Christian missionaries, but their water supply is horrible and disease ridden.

Locally, besides the school supply project, some years our church paints an elderly persons house for them (not a church member); no strings attached. We send mission teams from our church to help those in need in various places in this country as well as in Mexico and Peurto Rico. We also hold various events and do other helps locally. Of course we also have AWANA and other things too.

We support missionaries in India, a couple who reach out to Japanese in LA, missionaries in Mexico, etc.

We have a church picnic and other church gatherings throughout the year.

Our pastor encourages us to get together and form friendships and to fellowship outside of church and church activities too.

I'm not saying our church is anywhere near perfect, but we do try to get beyond the Sunday "meet, greet and retreat" mode many churches have.

Yes, American churches in particular are lacking, some even realize it, but how to practically bring about positive change has been a prOBlem even for those who want to.

[anime4christ]

John. The prOBlem is that a the vast majority doesn't understand church as something besides the Sunday come, listen, leave, check the box, and move on kind of thing. Some of those who do however, go the opposite and start declaring everything holy, from the liturgy to the preacher's hand movements. Either approach is wrong, but that is what I see among many people.

[MaxKennedy]

John. The prOBlem is that a the vast majority doesn't understand church as something besides the Sunday come, listen, leave, check the box, and move on kind of thing. Some of those who do however, go the opposite and start declaring everything holy, from the liturgy to the preacher's hand movements. Either approach is wrong, but that is what I see among many people.

That's because there is really only one church, the body of Christ, the bride, New Jerusalem. Not saying their aren't local communities of believers (I don't think the bible ever said local bodies - and to say local bodies sounds like Christ has many bodies instead of one).


Galatians 4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Hebrews 12:22
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Revelation 21:2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Edited August 26, 2010 by MaxKennedy

[amblivion]

That's because there is really only one church, the body of Christ, the bride, New Jerusalem. Not saying their aren't local communities of believers (I don't think the bible ever said local bodies - and to say local bodies sounds like Christ has many bodies instead of one).


Galatians 4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Hebrews 12:22
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Revelation 21:2
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

While the Bible doesn't ever say local bodies, it also doesn't say universal church. There are instances in the Bible that it is pretty clear the writers is writing about a local body of believers when using the term church.

Matthew 18:15-17

15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

If these verses are not written about a local body, then we could say it is safe for other churches to conduct church discipline on people who are not members of their churches.

Acts 9:31Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

This verse uses churches in the plural form which would indicate there is more than one church. There are other examples of this in Scripture. The writers clarify sometimes whether it be the church of Jerusalem or the church at Cenchrea. I think the Bible shows that the local church exists and calls it a church.

[JerryNumbers]

Yes, I'm a member of only a local church, not a universal church, a universal church has not authority over me, yet the local church does, & it has the right to use church discipline, yet the so called universal church does not.




In 1 Corinthians 5 it quite clear, Paul tells us that the local church had the authority to deal with the one who was committing fornication, not the universal church of which this man had nothing to do with.

He tells this local church: 1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ

Who is the "when ye are gathered together?"

We have to go back to 1 Corinthians 1:2 to find out.

1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth..."

So its quite clear, the "when ye are gathered together," is the local church at Corinth.

So yes, if one will take their time and actually study, OBeying what God says in 2 Timothy 2:15 the New Testament they will find that the local church is spoken of very often and all authority lies within the local church and at this time there is no such thing as a universal church.

Oh, I might say, when Jesus comes He will take His church out of this world, and it will not be one church until that day. Until them there will only be members of local churches.

Universal church is of the Roman Catholic's, not of God. Seems there be many that hold to their falses teachings.

The Devil doesn’t try to get you to do a wrong thing. Rather he tries to get you to do a right thing in the wrong way.

No doubt, the old devil has many people having the wrong view about Jesus' Churches.

[heartstrings]

I would have to listen to a few more if his sermons but, from listening to 34-53, he sounds like his heart is in the right place.



Acts 2:41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

43And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.

44And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

45And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

46And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

[Brother Rick]

I can't watch the video for some reason. As far as the local church, John made some good point. A lot of things are subject to culture, which in itself is biblical on the sense of "becoming all things to all men...", so long as the Bible and holiness are not compromised.

This is one of my favorite verses on the local church, you can tell it's local by the context:

I Tim. 3:15, But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

The church isn't the truth as the RCC would try and tell you, the Bible is. The Bible is the truth, and it's the OBligation and privilage of the local church to support the truth in being the pillar and ground of the truth.

I've seen a lot of people forsake church for "family time" and other things. Someone put up an article by David Cloud recently that was excellent on this subject.

Edited August 26, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[Brother Rick]

Universal church is of the Roman Catholic's, not of God. Seems there be many that hold to their falses teachings.

I'm not trying to challenge you, I'd just like clarification. Do you believe that there is such a thing as the body of Christ, and it consists of all believers, and it is also referred to as "the church" according to Col. 1:18, 24?

If so, what is it about the teaching of the universal church that you do not like?

Is it just the term "universal church"?

Is it because Catholics abuse the doctrine to get a stranglehold?

I understand where you came from and agree with you on the idea that the universal church does not have authority over you, I just would like further clarification on what you believe about the universal church.

[heartstrings]

Every believer on the planet is part of the church....the body of Christ. But in order to have "church" you must have an assembly of believers. At the present time, the church cannot physically assemble on this earth. We will when Jesus comes back but not until then. Right now, the only way to have "church" is the local church. It is impossible to do it any other way. The Catholic "church" cannot be a church and it's not even Christian anyway. And a person can be a member of a sound local church and still not be a member of the church. Because you have to be born again to be a member of the church

What this man seems to be saying is that what most people call "church", is to meet three times a week, sing a couple of songs and a special or two, listen to a sermon, shake hands and go home. He's saying that a true church is an assembly of true Spirit filled believers with unity and genuine love for one another, having compassion for the lost, praying together, denying themselves and seeing to the needs of others and going out and spreading the gospel, like they did in Acts 2:41-47

Edited August 26, 2010 by heartstrings