Local Church?

[irishman]

I believe we are talking about two different things, the governing of the church is through the pastor, but side ministries (and I already gave a few examples) are not governed by the local church, they are independent ministries that function apart from the church, no matter what they teach; they are a separate entity unto themselves, and feed off the church for support.

Creation Science is a theory, and not a fact, based on the "gap theory" basically, and supposedly explain dinosaurs and such, which thew evolutionists agree with! If we admit that these beasts walked the earth, and that the bones they find are from dinosaurs, then we can admit other facts of the evolutionary process. I don't think it is good to build a doctrine from such a basis as that.

[Anon]

I believe we are talking about two different things, the governing of the church is through the pastor, but side ministries (and I already gave a few examples) are not governed by the local church, they are independent ministries that function apart from the church, no matter what they teach; they are a separate entity unto themselves, and feed off the church for support.

Creation Science is a theory, and not a fact, based on the "gap theory" basically, and supposedly explain dinosaurs and such, which thew evolutionists agree with! If we admit that these beasts walked the earth, and that the bones they find are from dinosaurs, then we can admit other facts of the evolutionary process. I don't think it is good to build a doctrine from such a basis as that.

ICR does not believe in the gap theory and does most Creation studies showing the "proofs" for evolution are actually proofs of the flood of Noah's day.

[brother_mike]

Creation Science is a theory, and not a fact, based on the "gap theory" basically, and supposedly explain dinosaurs and such, which thew evolutionists agree with! If we admit that these beasts walked the earth, and that the bones they find are from dinosaurs, then we can admit other facts of the evolutionary process. I don't think it is good to build a doctrine from such a basis as that.

Creation Science is prOBably not a good term to use, but all of the creation ministries I have studied material from, CESM, ICR, Kent Hovind and Ken Ham, in not way shape or form believe in anything other than a literal, Biblical, 6 day creation. No gap theory. No day-age. No theistic evolution.

To deny that "dinosaurs" walked the earth is non-sense. There is physical remains of beasts that at one time were alive and kicking. Dinosaurs is a man-made term. These were just animals of God's creation.

The main purpose of supporting and teaching a creation ministry is to defend one of the most fought against doctrines of the Bible. Creation. Once we let the opposition do away with the creation account, we give away the concept of original sin. We give that up and there is no need for a Saviour. It is also important that this teaching include examples of how the "proofs" of science either truly fail, or are actually supportive of the Biblical creation account.

I do believe, however, that these ministries should not take away from our responsibilities to our local church. These topics should also not be used in a worship service. More appropriate for a Sunday school, mid-week Bible study, or additional type of service

[John81]

I don't think this thread is staying on topic....

Creation Research never claims to be a church or have a pastor, nor does it send out missionaries or even train preachers and missionaries...its simply a research and education business.

Most churches do not have the resources to take away from winning the lost to have this type of thing going on...science research and Creation education.

I don't see anything unbiblical about it at all.

I agree with the above poster...once you have given your tithe, offering, and missions to your own local church and you want to donate to a good cause, then go for it! There are other good causes out there that are not based out of churches....pro-life causes being another huge one that does not have to be out of a church but is worth our support.

Agreed. There are specific areas the local church should have authority and there are areas they can't cover as well.

I also agree with your other post, these groups are not gap theorists (there are some out there but I know neither of us would support such) and they are not seeking to take evolutionist theory and put a Christian spin to it. These creation ministries are there to show the truth of Genesis; that Creation is true, the Flood is true, and how true scientific study shows these to be true. Important works especially needed in these days when Creation is denied at all levels of "education" in America today, as well as through scientific media whether publications, TV, etc.

[JerryNumbers]

Back to the topic, if its God's work, them its done under the authority of a local church. That said, there be many who do works outside of the local church because they do not want to be under the authority of a local church, they want to do it their way. Plus they want the glory for the works.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Jerry80871852

[irishman]

Amen Jerry. well spoken. why else would people want to have a ministry apart from the local church? It is easy to incorporate it into the church, and work through the church to accomplish the same thing!

If the so-called Creation science "movement" (and that is what it is, a "movement) is bent on teaching about dinosaurs and cave men, etc, where do we read of them in scripture, except for a few vague references in JOB? And there is no proof that those animals are dinosaurs, or that they are elephants, or other huge beasts...but that is neither here nor there really, because we are talking about other movements also. I even took a close look at RU, which could have easily been a para-church movement, but managed to incorporate itself into the local church and become a bonafide, and legitimate ministry of the church Which proves it can be done properly. (Though that can easily become ecumenical too)

The dinosaurs are associated with "millions of years ago", etc., where do they fit in this six thousand year old world? They were (supposedly) considered primitive beasts, and man fought them with sticks. It seems that such an integral part of the world's history would have much mention in Genesis, or more OBviously so in JOB.

Edited July 3, 2010 by irishman

[JerryNumbers]

I might add, when people have their own ministry, not connected with the local church, them they can live off of God while claiming to do the works of God.

What gets me is all of those who beg the world, the unbelievers for money to support them and their ministry. From what I gather from the Bible the local church is suppose to be self supporting, supported by its members who are suppose to be believers, not support by the people of the world.

A true New Testament Church, that is begging the world of unbelievers for money, that really does not put that church nor that believe in a good sight, and it does not really bring glory to our Lord.

Of course the local church who gains support from others besides their members, they prOBably do not have to do any sacrificial giving, and therefore able to have many more worldly possession to fulfill their lust of the flesh.

[Wilchbla]

I haven't see any verses posted to support the position that all ministries must operate under the authority or auspices of the local church. We must be careful proclaiming something as dogma that the word of God doesn't.

Edited July 3, 2010 by Wilchbla

[irishman]

I might add, when people have their own ministry, not connected with the local church, them they can live off of God while claiming to do the works of God.

What gets me is all of those who beg the world, the unbelievers for money to support them and their ministry. From what I gather from the Bible the local church is suppose to be self supporting, supported by its members who are suppose to be believers, not support by the people of the world.

A true New Testament Church, that is begging the world of unbelievers for money, that really does not put that church nor that believe in a good sight, and it does not really bring glory to our Lord.

Of course the local church who gains support from others besides their members, they prOBably do not have to do any sacrificial giving, and therefore able to have many more worldly possession to fulfill their lust of the flesh.

Yeah, that irks me too, even the "Moral Majority" of Jerry Falwell spent a lot of time begging for "donations". His radio program used to be for 15 minutes here, and he spent the majority of them asking for money so it would not be taken off the air! (Maybe I should not have mentioned his name!)

[irishman]

I haven't see any verses posted to support the position that all ministries must operate under the authority or auspices of the local church. We must be careful proclaiming something as dogma that the word of God doesn't.

Wilchbla, the Bible does not say "Thou shalt go to church" either, but will you forsake it for that reason?

I understand your point, but many things we do/believe have no solid black-and-white scriptures to support it. (smoking, gambling, etc.)

[John81]

Not sure why the unbelieving regarding dinosaurs and cave men. The evolutionists claim dinosaurs lived millions of years, even millions of years before man evolved. Creationists rightly proclaim dinosaurs were created during the first six days along with the rest of creation. Creationists also rightly point out that men and dinosaurs lived at the same time. There is evidence proving this which evolutionists ignore.

Cave men are painted by evolutionists as some sort of pre-human or less evolved human. Creationists rightly show that cave men were men who happened to live in and use caves for a time; likely because of the ice age. Men have long used caves for shelter and other means. While evolutionists attempt to hide or ignore the evidence which shows the cave men were intelligent men like unto us, Creationists bring this evidence to light.

What does or does not constitute a "ministry"?

[irishman]

Not sure why the unbelieving regarding dinosaurs and cave men. The evolutionists claim dinosaurs lived millions of years, even millions of years before man evolved. Creationists rightly proclaim dinosaurs were created during the first six days along with the rest of creation. Creationists also rightly point out that men and dinosaurs lived at the same time. There is evidence proving this which evolutionists ignore.

Cave men are painted by evolutionists as some sort of pre-human or less evolved human. Creationists rightly show that cave men were men who happened to live in and use caves for a time; likely because of the ice age. Men have long used caves for shelter and other means. While evolutionists attempt to hide or ignore the evidence which shows the cave men were intelligent men like unto us, Creationists bring this evidence to light.

What does or does not constitute a "ministry"?

Every one seems to speak of "evidence proving", but who knows for sure? The evolutionist also speaks of "evidence" and his entire theory is based on circumstantial evidence! We have to rely on the same sources that the evolutionist does to determine such things as dinosaurs, but we reject their evidence, and promote ours!

Anyway, as I said before, that is not the issue here. A "ministry" is an outreach or work of a local church, I thought you would know that. Even a tract ministry should be headquartered out of a local church, and not "owned and operated" aside from the church.

Are those singing groups really considered full time workers? They are para-church organizations that travel around giving concerts, etc. and though they talk about the Lord, and sometimes preach a sermonette, Many of them are not local church or even fit the bill of a "ministry". An evangelist has a sending church; a missionary usually has a sending church--these are ministries that do the work of the church in other places.

[John81]

Every one seems to speak of "evidence proving", but who knows for sure? The evolutionist also speaks of "evidence" and his entire theory is based on circumstantial evidence! We have to rely on the same sources that the evolutionist does to determine such things as dinosaurs, but we reject their evidence, and promote ours!

Anyway, as I said before, that is not the issue here. A "ministry" is an outreach or work of a local church, I thought you would know that. Even a tract ministry should be headquartered out of a local church, and not "owned and operated" aside from the church.

Are those singing groups really considered full time workers? They are para-church organizations that travel around giving concerts, etc. and though they talk about the Lord, and sometimes preach a sermonette, Many of them are not local church or even fit the bill of a "ministry". An evangelist has a sending church; a missionary usually has a sending church--these are ministries that do the work of the church in other places.

I do know what I think constitutes a ministry but that doesn't mean others don't have differing ideas.

The proof of dinosaurs is the skeletal remains. Evolutionists claim without proof that such had to have been fossilized over millions of years. Creationists show proof of fossilized remains of creatures from contempory times which proves it doesn't take millions of years.

[JerryNumbers]

Every one seems to speak of "evidence proving", but who knows for sure? The evolutionist also speaks of "evidence" and his entire theory is based on circumstantial evidence! We have to rely on the same sources that the evolutionist does to determine such things as dinosaurs, but we reject their evidence, and promote ours!

Anyway, as I said before, that is not the issue here. A "ministry" is an outreach or work of a local church, I thought you would know that. Even a tract ministry should be headquartered out of a local church, and not "owned and operated" aside from the church.

Are those singing groups really considered full time workers? They are para-church organizations that travel around giving concerts, etc. and though they talk about the Lord, and sometimes preach a sermonette, Many of them are not local church or even fit the bill of a "ministry". An evangelist has a sending church; a missionary usually has a sending church--these are ministries that do the work of the church in other places.

I know for fact a few of them never enter a church unless they are invited to a singing engagement.

I was reading on one singers web site sometime back, he said, when I'm home I'm always to tired to attend my local church services, I've got to rest up and get prepared for my next one.


I might mention, many of the words they say are carefully prepared, depending on what denomination of church they're singing in, they do not want to offend the hand that pays them and they know well that some teach works, church membership, baptizing, by grace thru faith, and so forth.

[irishman]

I know for fact a few of them never enter a church unless they are invited to a singing engagement.

I was reading on one singers web site sometime back, he said, when I'm home I'm always to tired to attend my local church services, I've got to rest up and get prepared for my next one.


I might mention, many of the words they say are carefully prepared, depending on what denomination of church they're singing in, they do not want to offend the hand that pays them and they know well that some teach works, church membership, baptizing, by grace thru faith, and so forth.

I know that they consider themselves as full time workers, as a pastor or evangelist might. Also, they call their singing a "calling" and a ministry, because they "minister in song".

John81~A difference of opinion is always welcome here I'm sure, but please afford me the same privilege.