Discussion Topic - Can Lying Or Stealing Ever Be Acceptable?

[John81]

War does not give one a license to sin. The Jews were directly ordered by God to be the instruments of His punishment upon those certain tribes in the Promised Land. God had judged these tribes and found them guilty with the punishment due being death. God ordered the Jews to carry out this sentence. This was not war in man-made sense, it was the judgement of God upon a specific group of people.

Scripture has been posted which makes it very clear that to lie or steal, at any time, is sin.

God calls us to a very high standard; actually the ultimate high standard. We are commanded to be holy, for He is holy. From the time we accept Jesus as our Saviour and Lord until our departure from this life we are to be pursuing holiness; growing in Christlikeness.

Christ says if ye love me, keep my commandments. Among those commandments we are told not to lie or steal. There are to exceptions laid out granting us loop holes.

We play with dangerous fire when we try to justify sin.

[Psalms18_28]

War does not give one a license to sin. The Jews were directly ordered by God to be the instruments of His punishment upon those certain tribes in the Promised Land. God had judged these tribes and found them guilty with the punishment due being death. God ordered the Jews to carry out this sentence. This was not war in man-made sense, it was the judgement of God upon a specific group of people.

Scripture has been posted which makes it very clear that to lie or steal, at any time, is sin.

God calls us to a very high standard; actually the ultimate high standard. We are commanded to be holy, for He is holy. From the time we accept Jesus as our Saviour and Lord until our departure from this life we are to be pursuing holiness; growing in Christlikeness.

Christ says if ye love me, keep my commandments. Among those commandments we are told not to lie or steal. There are to exceptions laid out granting us loop holes.

We play with dangerous fire when we try to justify sin.

This reminds me of someone, can't remember where or who, who wondered if does it make God a murderer if he take loved ones so soon. Actually, I believe he was trying to point out that if God is a hypocrite, or at least how the bible is.
I do know one thing, God bring life, and he take life.

[Psalms18_28]

War does not give one a license to sin.

And that does include violent abusive men(or women) as well (like the post I mentioned earlier). They have no rights to put fear in women and children in such way they feel they have to lie so the abusive man won't touch them. Edited April 17, 2010 by Psalms18_28

[John81]

This reminds me of someone, can't remember where or who, who wondered if does it make God a murderer if he take loved ones so soon. Actually, I believe he was trying to point out that if God is a hypocrite, or at least how the bible is.
I do know one thing, God bring life, and he take life.

God is the Creator and we are His creation. God does indeed give us life and God controls death. Scripture tells us that no one knows when they will die, which is why the time to be saved is now; we may not have tomorrow.

God knows the beginning from the end. If someone who is heavenbound upon death dies at an early age then they are going to be with Jesus which is far better than being here in earth. Any time a believer dies, even if their death seems tragic or too early from our very limited perspective, the truth of the matter is that they have been promoted to heaven and will no longer be subject to the fallen nature of the world or the sin that inflicts it.


The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord!

[John81]

And that does include violent abusive men(or women) as well (like the post I mentioned earlier). They have no rights to put fear in women and children in such way they feel they have to lie so the abusive man won't touch them.

True. We are called to love one another as ourselves, to esteem others as better than ourselves, to treat others with kindness, gentleness and charity. There is no excuse for anyone to use violence and fear to get their own way.

[Anon]

Rancher had a VERY VERY good post!!!!

When you think about wartime anyway, you HAVE to use some sort of deceit to win...even war maneuvers involve strategies to deceive the enemy. If our armies would follow what's being said here, they'd have to march right up to the Afghan army and go "Hi guys! We're here to scope out your WMD and kill any of y'all that get outta line. Ya mind?"

Right.

Sometimes I think this topic is along the lines of a "Jephthah's daughter" topic. Everyone has good spiritual reasons why they believe what they believe and yet the topic never really resolves. LOL.

By the way, just as I believe that Jephthah's daughter was killed in a literal burnt offering...I also believe Rahab was commended for her ENTIRE deed...God didn't say "I winked at Rahab's lying because she meant well"...he said she was blessed for her faith...and her act of faith was....deceit!!!! Deceit to the ENEMY of WAR that is.

Just as "murder" and "kill" are different, I also think "lying" and "wartime deceit/strategy" is different too. Same as rancher said about "stealing" and "plundering spoil".

[John81]

Rancher had a VERY VERY good post!!!!

When you think about wartime anyway, you HAVE to use some sort of deceit to win...even war maneuvers involve strategies to deceive the enemy. If our armies would follow what's being said here, they'd have to march right up to the Afghan army and go "Hi guys! We're here to scope out your WMD and kill any of y'all that get outta line. Ya mind?"

Right.

Sometimes I think this topic is along the lines of a "Jephthah's daughter" topic. Everyone has good spiritual reasons why they believe what they believe and yet the topic never really resolves. LOL.

By the way, just as I believe that Jephthah's daughter was killed in a literal burnt offering...I also believe Rahab was commended for her ENTIRE deed...God didn't say "I winked at Rahab's lying because she meant well"...he said she was blessed for her faith...and her act of faith was....deceit!!!! Deceit to the ENEMY of WAR that is.

Just as "murder" and "kill" are different, I also think "lying" and "wartime deceit/strategy" is different too. Same as rancher said about "stealing" and "plundering spoil".

Are we discussing how nations should conduct war or are we discussing how we as Christians are to live?

An army sending out recon units to discover enemy positions isn't a lie so I'm not sure how that fits in anyway.

David was called a man after God's own heart but that in no way means God was commending David for committing adultery and murder. LuAnne already posted well on what Rahab was blessed for and it was not for telling a lie.

If telling certain lies were okay God would have reflected this in the law as he did with clarifying the difference between sinful killing and otherwise.

We can't take a clear command of God and attempt to go around it by looking to the sinful actions of others. This is similar to how many modern churches determine it's okay to have women preachers. Sure Scripture says preachers are to be men but in the OT there was Deborah as a judge and there were women prophetesses so certainly that means in some cases it's okay to have women preachers. This is a twisting of Scripture to get around a clear command of God.

[Alimantado]

"LuAnne already clearly explained why Rahab was blessed and it wasn't for committing the sin of telling a lie."

And...

"LuAnne already posted well on what Rahab was blessed for and it was not for telling a lie."

This is not to put HappyChristian down or discredit her post but the fact is that she did not explain anything in her post. She didn't refer in detail to any scripture or expound on any text, so her points were assertions, not explanations. Nothing wrong with making assertions, of course, but that's all they are.

rancher824 has provided a detailed response and has backed up his arguments explicitely. Would be good to see a counter that's as detailed...

Edited April 17, 2010 by Alimantado

[John81]

"LuAnne already clearly explained why Rahab was blessed and it wasn't for committing the sin of telling a lie."

And...

"LuAnne already posted well on what Rahab was blessed for and it was not for telling a lie."

This is not to put HappyChristian down or discredit her post but the fact is that she did not explain anything in her post. She didn't refer in detail to any scripture or expound on any text, so her points were assertions, not explanations. Nothing wrong with making assertions, of course, but that's all they are.

rancher824 has provided a detailed response and has backed up his arguments explicitely. Would be good to see a counter that's as detailed...

Scripture has already been cited in this thead showing Gods Word codemns all lying as sin. I posted one verse and I believe it was Jerry who posted others.

Scripture clearly tells us that to lie is a sin and there are no exceptions given to this command. No one has provided Scripture which says in this or that circumstance it's okay to lie. This is because no such Scripture exists.

Attempting to say that because a particular person told a lie and God still blessed them therefore telling a lie must be okay sometimes is completely twisting the Scriptures. One can make the Scriptures say anything if there is no concern for context or the total Word of God.

To lie is to sin. To steal is to sin. To commit adultery is to sin. Not only does Scripture declare that to lie is a sin, but it is declared as an abomination unto the Lord.

We are a fallen people and Scripture reveals the bad along with the good when discussing individuals in the Bible. Many people committed various sins but the Lord still blessed them. Not because they sinned, for God causes the sun and rain to fall upon the just and unjust alike, and everyone God chooses to bless He must show His mercy and grace to us in order to do so because all are sinners. God does not bless sin, but even sinners receive blessings from God. If this were not so we would all be without blessing.

[Brother Rick]

Attempting to say that because a particular person told a lie and God still blessed them therefore telling a lie must be okay sometimes is completely twisting the Scriptures. One can make the Scriptures say anything if there is no concern for context or the total Word of God.

Wrong. We are not ignoring the context or the total word of God.

NO WHERE in the Bible does it specifically give an allowance to kill others.
NO WHERE in the Bible does it specifically give an allowance to steal.
NO WHERE in the Bible does it specifically give an allowance to lie.

HOWEVER:

If you study the Bible, and you look at the total word of God you'll see that God does make exceptions, and even commands people to do these things.

Ehud decieved the guards to get in to see Eglon. That's LYING.
Ehud was told to assassinate Eglon in cold blood. That's MURDER.
The nation of Israel was told to spoil their enemies. That's STEALING.


As was pointed out very well by the cake lady, it's the fact that these situations all involve military warfare. There is a huge difference between military armed conflict and what God allows then and what God allows in peacetime.



Go ahead, tell the Nazi where your Jewish wife is hiding and see how God feels about it. Edited April 17, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[John81]

Why the hostility?

If you read the entire law in the OT you will indeed find where God distinquishes between punishable murder and that which is accidental or justifiable.

Again, you can't point to the actions of sinful men and claim that because they were on the good guys side that their sins were acceptable. If such were the case it would be fine for us to commit adultery, take unbelievers as wives, commit murder and other sins.

Why the attempt to find justification for sin in the context of war? Were it not for sin, the fall and the curse there would be no war. Scripture does not condone sin in any context.

When it comes to my wife I have faith God is far better able to care for her than I and I have the assurance of Scripture that if I OBey His Word, His will will be done.

[Brother Rick]

Why the hostility?

I apologize, I got a little carried away.

[JerryNumbers]

Scripture has already been cited in this thead showing Gods Word codemns all lying as sin. I posted one verse and I believe it was Jerry who posted others.

Scripture clearly tells us that to lie is a sin and there are no exceptions given to this command. No one has provided Scripture which says in this or that circumstance it's okay to lie. This is because no such Scripture exists.

Attempting to say that because a particular person told a lie and God still blessed them therefore telling a lie must be okay sometimes is completely twisting the Scriptures. One can make the Scriptures say anything if there is no concern for context or the total Word of God.

To lie is to sin. To steal is to sin. To commit adultery is to sin. Not only does Scripture declare that to lie is a sin, but it is declared as an abomination unto the Lord.

We are a fallen people and Scripture reveals the bad along with the good when discussing individuals in the Bible. Many people committed various sins but the Lord still blessed them. Not because they sinned, for God causes the sun and rain to fall upon the just and unjust alike, and everyone God chooses to bless He must show His mercy and grace to us in order to do so because all are sinners. God does not bless sin, but even sinners receive blessings from God. If this were not so we would all be without blessing.

True and !


John, Back in the Old Testament days they are under the direct command of God being told just what to do, who to kill, who to let live. Seems our direct command from God different much from there's.

Love you enemies, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Seems many are trying to live under the law, while leaving grace out that came to us by Christ.

[Anon]

Rick good point about the Nazi thing....

I would like to know if any of those who disagree with my viewpoint (not that it matters haha) have ever been in active wartime military duty? I mean, it sounds all well and good to say we should never lie, and under normal circumstances this is true.

But we can study the Bible and find lots of "weird" things that happened during wartime! Study God's character during wartime, and even during the prophets. He made alot of "exceptions"...and He can! He's allowed.

There were times he had the prophets do unusual things...which one, was it Isaiah??? Who had to lay there naked or something like that? That's immodest. And then he had Hosea marry a harlot. God can change the rules when He wants to.

Again, I"m not saying we would ever have to find a situation where its "ok to lie" in our lifetimes...but I don't think God expects a Christian CIA guy to tell the enemy where the USA secrets are...etc. There are a few times when maybe lying isn't really lying....but I will say that is not an excuse for US to say its "okay" to lie. I'm simply pointing out not EVERY SINGLE lie, is necessarily a sin.

[Alimantado]

Thanks, John. A few points to add...

Scripture has already been cited in this thead showing Gods Word codemns all lying as sin. I posted one verse and I believe it was Jerry who posted others.

Yes, you posted this verse:

Thou shalt not steal. - Exodus 20:15 (KJV)

You are right that it is clear. But then others posted the following verse, which is just as clear:

Thou shalt not kill. - Exodus 20:13 (KJV)

You then argued that with verse 13 it is ok to reinterpret it because of what scripture says elsewhere. It looks to me like what people are doing here is seeing whether the argument you yourself apply to verse 13 can also be applied to verse 15.

Scripture clearly tells us that to lie is a sin and there are no exceptions given to this command. No one has provided Scripture which says in this or that circumstance it's okay to lie. This is because no such Scripture exists.

People have supplied verses of scripture which they are working through to see whether they do just that. You say those verses don't. Fair enough. So now it would be helpful for you or HappyChristian or whoever else to go through those scriptures in detail and show why they don't say what people are claiming they are saying. You say that HappyChristian has already done this but if you look at her post you will see she did not actually show how the scripture in question supported her claims about it. That's why I call her points assertions and not explanations.

Attempting to say that because a particular person told a lie and God still blessed them therefore telling a lie must be okay sometimes is completely twisting the Scriptures. One can make the Scriptures say anything if there is no concern for context or the total Word of God.

I imagine that people on both sides of the discussion would agree with that. I'll bow to your greater wisdom on this and just say that it doesn't look like other people here are trying to ignore context or the total Word of God. On the contrary, rancher824 and a few others have made reference to scripture from many different books and examined said scriptures in detail. It looks like they are trying to pay heed to both (whether or not they are reaching the right conclusions).

If telling certain lies were okay God would have reflected this in the law as he did with clarifying the difference between sinful killing and otherwise.

This is fine as an assertion. Now if someone who knows less than you decides to test your assertion by examining scripture for themselves and they naturally ask questions of the claim and consider it alongside other claims, are they 'attempting to justify sin' by so doing? You seem to be saying they are.