How do you feel about movies with magic and such?

[Seth Doty]

But I asked first.

So did the chief priests and elders in Matthew 21, where did that get them? :biggrin:

[Annie]

So did the chief priests and elders in Matthew 21, where did that get them?

So, you're dodging? Fine, then. I'll give you a straight answer, then I'll expect your straight answer in return.

God is not the only creative being in the universe. He made men in His image, and, as such, they have the ability to create. The creator of Middle Earth is not God, but J.R.R. Tolkein. The creator of Narnia is not God, but C.S. Lewis. The creator of any "world" is the author of that world's story. The creator of the story makes the rules for that story. Can animals talk? Not in God's world, but in Beatrix Potter's. Can little boys fly? Not in God's world, but in J.M. Barrie's. Do animals think like humans? Not in God's world, but in Prokofiev's orchestral work Peter and the Wolf.

Now, your answer: Does the story of Cinderella take place in the real world, the world of God and Satan? Edited April 10, 2011 by Annie

[Seth Doty]

So, you're dodging? Fine, then. I'll give you a straight answer, then I'll expect your straight answer in return.

God is not the only creative being in the universe. He made men in His image, and, as such, they have the ability to create. The creator of Middle Earth is not God, but J.R.R. Tolkein. The creator of Narnia is not God, but C.S. Lewis. The creator of any story is its author. The creator of the story makes the rules for that story. Can animals talk? Not in God's world, but in Beatrix Potter's. Can little boys fly? Not in God's world, but in J.M. Barrie's.

Now, your answer: Does the story of Cinderella take place in the real world, the world of God and Satan?

Fair enough. Then yes. There is no world where God is not and all worlds that exist anywhere are real, though they may not be physical. Man cannot create any world without God including imaginary ones though many have tried in various ways. God is omnipresent. It is impossible to exclude God. However, those things including imaginary worlds that make an effort to deny the omnipresence of God and attempt to replace him with a different "god" or "gods" are wrong and are no place for a Christian to be.

"2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;"

[Annie]

Fair enough. Then yes. There is no world where God is not and all worlds that exist anywhere are real, though they may not be physical. Man cannot create any world without God including imaginary ones though many have tried in various ways. God is omnipresent. It is impossible to exclude God. However, those things including imaginary worlds that make an effort to deny the omnipresence of God and attempt to replace him with a different "god" or "gods" are wrong and are no place for a Christian to be.

"2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;"

So...no Beatrix Potter? No J.M. Barrie? No Prokofiev? No Dr. Doolittle? Your reading list just got shorter, it seems. To say that God is present as a character in a world where animals talk is ludicrous and can get you into trouble quickly. God is not imaginary; therefore, He does not belong in imaginary worlds. To place Him there is to deny that He even exists at all. It is to say that He, along with elves and hobbits, is imaginary. "God" and "imaginary" do not belong in the same sentence, or the same category; they are mutually exclusive one from the other. To say otherwise is seriously mistaken. To be honest, this is the main problem I have with Patch the Pirate's stories: they mix reality and fantasy. Edited April 10, 2011 by Annie

[Seth Doty]

[so...no Beatrix Potter? No J.M. Barrie? No Prokofiev? No Dr. Doolittle? Your reading list just got shorter, it seems.

Fiction is fine and in subjection to God except where it contradicts Gods moral law and presents that as a positive thing. Such is the case when you have "magical" beings working supernatural events.

To say that God is present as a character in a world where animals talk is ludicrous and can get you into trouble quickly. God is not imaginary; therefore, He does not belong in imaginary worlds. To place Him there is to deny that He even exists at all. It is to say that He, along with elves and hobbits is imaginary. "God" and "imaginary" do not belong in the same sentence, or the same category; they are mutually exclusive one from the other. To say otherwise is seriously mistaken.

No such thing. Have you ever imagined yourself in an imaginary world doing imaginary things? Do not people enter imaginary worlds and fit in just as well as everything else? Now if people can enter a imaginary world with their minds how could God not go with them? If by entering a imaginary world people escaped God then God would not know mens thoughts nor would he speak to them through dreams as he does on occasion. Further, a Christian would have no business in any area God was not. The only remaining options would be the flesh or the devil, both of which are wrong. God created the imagination, to say he created it and yet somehow does not belong therein would be a serious mistake unless you somehow believe imagination is wrong all together and was not created by God.

[Annie]

Fiction is fine and in subjection to God except where it contradicts Gods moral law and presents that as a positive thing. Such is the case when you have "magical" beings working supernatural events.

But what is "supernatural"?

No such thing. Have you ever imagined yourself in an imaginary world doing imaginary things? Do not people enter imaginary worlds and fit in just as well as everything else? Now if people can enter a imaginary world with their minds how could God not go with them?

God can "go with me," insofar as He lives inside me. But He is not the creator of the imaginary world, nor a character in it. He is not imaginary. Just because I "enter" (in my imagination) into an imaginary world, does not mean that I am a part of that world, except as a visitor, an observer, an "imaginer." When I read about Middle Earth, I am not a member of Middle Earth, just as God is not a member of Middle Earth. Middle Earth is a world created by a man.

I look at human-created work (paintings, etc.) all the time and "enter into" musical works in my imagination, but God is not "in" those works; He is not "part of" them. To say that He is part of any created thing (especially things that arise from man's imagination) is not only heretical, but pantheistic and therefore blasphemous.

If by entering a imaginary world people escaped God then God would not know mens thoughts nor would he speak to them through dreams as he does on occasion.

Now you're confusing "entering" an imaginary world and "being a part of" an imaginary world. You're not making any sense. In order to enter an imaginary world, we must obviously "suspend" reality in our minds...so that we can find enjoyment in Beatrix Potter's world of talking animals, or Tolkein's world of elves and hobbits. If we "belonged" in those worlds, we would, like the talking animals and the hobbits and elves, not be real. Am I the only one that finds these facts to be obvious?

Further, a Christian would have no business in any area God was not. The only remaining options would be the flesh or the devil, both of which are wrong. God created the imagination, to say he created it and yet somehow does not belong therein would be a serious mistake unless you somehow believe imagination is wrong all together and was not created by God.

Again, I don't leave God behind when I explore imaginary worlds. It isn't possible, since He dwells within my heart and mind and spirit. But He and I are not MEMBERS of imaginary worlds. We are real, unlike stories that spring from the God-given imagination of humans. The characters in the imaginary worlds are, by definition, IMAGINARY. They are not real. Do you honestly not understand this? Edited April 10, 2011 by Annie

[Seth Doty]

But what is "supernatural"?

Not a serious question if one is a professing Christian I hope.

God can "go with me," insofar as He lives inside me. But He is not the creator of the imaginary world, nor a character in it. He is not imaginary. Just because I "enter" (in my mind) into an imaginary world, does not mean that I am a part of that world, except as a visitor, an observer, an "imaginer."

As the "imaginer" you are MORE a part of that world than the only imagined characters. The world would not exist but for the imagination. Therefore you are the single most essential part of that world next to God as your creator for you would not imagine anything unless he had created your imagination in the first place.

I look at human-created work (paintings, etc.) all the time and "enter into" musical works in my imagination, but God is not "in" those works; He is not "part of" them. To say that He is part of any created thing (especially things that arise from man's imagination) is not only pantheistic, but heretical and blasphemous.

God is everywhere, the creator of all things and by him all things consist. You may not understand that but it is true and not heretical in the slightest, it is scripture, though perhaps not in the "milk" category since abuse and misunderstanding of this can and often does lead to worshiping the creation instead of the creator.

"John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

"Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring."

"Colossians 1:16-17 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

Again, I don't leave God behind when I explore imaginary worlds. It isn't possible, since He dwells within my heart and mind and spirit. But He and I are not MEMBERS of imaginary worlds. We are real, unlike stories that spring from the God-given imagination of humans. The characters in the imaginary worlds are, by definition, IMAGINARY. They are not real. Do you honestly not understand this?

I understand that the physical is not the beginning nor the end of what is. Every Christian understands this or else they would never have saving faith. I understand that the physical and the spiritual, the intellect and the imagination, the soul and the spirit while not the same things and not functioning in the same ways are yet still very real and part of the whole, and that the imagination can and does effect both the physical and spiritual. I understand that every part of the whole is to be inline with God and the closer we are to that ideal the better off we are. That is what I understand. :icon_mrgreen: Edited April 10, 2011 by Seth-Doty

[Annie]

Not a serious question if one is a professing Christian I hope.

Yes, a serious one, when we're talking about fantasy worlds. What does "supernatural" mean in a fantasy/imaginary world?

As the "imaginer" you are MORE a part of that world than the only imagined characters. The world would not exist but for the imagination. Therefore you are the single most essential part of that world next to God as your creator for you would not imagine anything unless he had created your imagination in the first place.

This is faulty logic. The author is not "part of" the world he creates. He is not a character in the imaginary world. He is not a part of his creation, just as God is not a part of His creation.

I understand that the physical is not the beginning nor the end of what is. Every Christian understands this or else they would never have saving faith. I understand that the physical and the spiritual, the intellect and the imagination, the soul and the spirit while not the same things and not functioning in the same ways are yet still very real and part of the whole, and that the imagination can and does affect both the physical and spiritual. I understand that every part of the whole is to be inline with God and the closer to that we are to that ideal the better off we are. That is what I understand.

"Affecting" does not equal "being." Sorry, Seth, you're not making any sense.

I'm going to bow out of this discussion now, since I need to get to bed, and I'll be gone all day tomorrow. I'll leave others to hash this out. Thanks for the interaction. Edited April 10, 2011 by Annie

[Seth Doty]

This is faulty logic. The author is not "part of" the world he creates. He is not a character in the imaginary world. He is not a part of his creation, just as God is not a part of His creation.

No, I don't think it is faulty logic, it is just a concept your not used to. The creator can become part of his creation and "write himself into it" at any time if he so chooses while yet remaining above it. If that were not the case how could Christ take on the form of a man?

"Affecting" does not equal "being." Sorry, Seth, you're not making any sense.

Your seem to be coming at it from the perspective that the physical is all that is truly genuine. Man is body, soul, and spirit. Those three parts are the components of a whole. Your picking out one part, the body, and saying another part, the spirit(mind, will and emotions) is not "real" and is somehow separate from God.

I'm going to bow out of this discussion now, since I need to get to bed, and I'll be gone all day tomorrow. I'll leave others to hash this out. Thanks for the interaction.

Fine, I didn't really figure I would get anywhere trying to explain this to you and thus my reluctance to answer your initial question. However you answered my questions and wanted an answer to yours so it was only fair to answer them even though you are either disagreeing with or failing to understand what I am saying. It seems we disagree about 70% of the time in discussions anyway so I suppose that isn't to surprising. :wink

[John81]

While interesting, this conversation seems to be going well beyond what is necessary. Scripture is clear as to what Christians are to be involved with, and not. Scripture is clear as to where our focus is to be, and where it is not. Scripture is also clear with regards to sin.

Anything involving magic is something Christians should have nothing to do with. It doesn't matter whether the magic is said to be good (there is no such thing), or if it's in a movie or a children's book. The fact God calls such evil is more than enough reason for us to reject all such things.

Seth has done well in pointing out the sin of placing anything or anyone in place of God. That includes fairy godmothers, many "superheroes", aliens from non-existent worlds, etc.

A Christian is to have his eyes set on Christ and to be about the Father's business in this world. That's it. There is no room for escapism or the various sins involved in such.

[Miss Linda]

While interesting, this conversation seems to be going well beyond what is necessary. Scripture is clear as to what Christians are to be involved with, and not. Scripture is clear as to where our focus is to be, and where it is not. Scripture is also clear with regards to sin.

Anything involving magic is something Christians should have nothing to do with. It doesn't matter whether the magic is said to be good (there is no such thing), or if it's in a movie or a children's book. The fact God calls such evil is more than enough reason for us to reject all such things.

Seth has done well in pointing out the sin of placing anything or anyone in place of God. That includes fairy godmothers, many "superheroes", aliens from non-existent worlds, etc.

A Christian is to have his eyes set on Christ and to be about the Father's business in this world. That's it. There is no room for escapism or the various sins involved in such.

:amen:

[Nathaniel]

Nathaniel, what an *excellent* post. I have taken the liberty of copying it into my Bible study notes. This is a subject that interests me because the attorney I work for (I work as a legal secretary) also writes a series of books directed at adolescents. The books involve characters who are vampires, shape shifters, werewolves, and all other manner of abomination. This man has a family with four children, yet this is what he writes. He calls himself a Christian, but he doesn't believe there is anything wrong in writing books about this subject. He says he wants to make a great deal of money as the authors of the Harry Potter and Twilight series have done. It makes me shudder. I wonder if God will hold him accountable for the souls he has directed toward the occult by the books he has written.

Thanks Miss Linda and John I'm glad you liked it. I was nervous and I almost decided not to post it. Normally when I say something about it; people normally think I'm crazy and or get mad at me.

Which I suppose is to be expected.

[HappyChristian]

Thanks Miss Linda and John I'm glad you liked it. I was nervous and I almost decided not to post it. Normally when I say something about it; people normally think I'm crazy and or get mad at me.

Which I suppose is to be expected.

Nathaniel, even if someone gets upset if you post something like you did, it's still good that you posted it! Thanks for your honesty.
~~~~

Fiction falls into different categories called genres.

Fantasy is a genre that is defined by having magic as a strategic part of it's plot. Now, whether someone wants to argue that an imaginary world can contain magic because it isn't in the real world or not, the fact remains that God is against magic. I realize that, under grace, the OT has been fulfilled, but principles and patterns still remain: the God who proclaimed "suffer not a witch to live" did not qualify it by saying "unless it's in a children's storybook and is imaginary..." That may seem, to some, to be a bit straightlaced, but that's okay. I happen to believe God meant what He said! And that He didn't change His mind just because Christ died on the cross.

Sci-fi is also a genre, as has been mentioned. There are some sci-fi materials that overlap into fantasy, and thus would not be acceptable. However, the greater majority of sci-fi is actually based on the premise of "what if this could be attained." The "this" falling under the natural laws of the universe which God created, science. Yes, sometimes that involves different worlds - make believe worlds. Not a problem in and of itself, but the inhabitants of that world become companions of our minds, and help form our thoughts and outlooks (especially in children). And so, if there is magic (whether a reader wants to believe that magic is "real" or not), or if there is adultery, or exalted thievery, etc., it does not fall within the parameters of what scripture teaches us to allow into our minds.

Books that use the imagination (fiction) are fantastical - as has been said already, that means suspension of reality. Fantasy is fantastical, but not all fantastical books are of the fantasy genre. That is something that many people don't understand. As Seth pointed out, he was thinking fantasy meant anything imaginary. But, in the literary world, that isn't the case. Dr. Doolittle is fantastical, with no fantasy (magic). Cinderalla is fantasy, with a fairy god-mother who performs magic to make her life all better. Pilgrim's Progress is an allegory - a fantastical story that has a particular meaning to it (in this case, a person's journey to Christianity and on to Heaven). Beatrix Potter's books are fantastical, with not one shred of magic in them. Real or otherwise.

Each set of parents must decide for themselves how they will rear their children. And that includes reading material. But, Rick, to say something like this:

Saying they're wrong is just dumb (to me), and just seems like being principled for the sake of being principled with no real substance to it.

is completely wrong. You may disagree with someone who doesn't want their children reading things with magic in them (again, whether one wants to call it real or not), but God does say it's wrong. "Suffer not a witch to live" doesn't mean we can say - "oh, except in imaginary stories that are so cute, fluffy, fun or cuss-word free." Witchcraft and demonism is very real (and I know you know that), and there are parents who don't want their children comfortable with the idea that magic can by fun or cute.

[edf203]

I agree that there is no good magic. However, the "magic" in the Chronicles of Narnia, for example, is not witchcraft. It is only loosely-defined magic, if one could call God's supernatural ability "magic". The magic in Narnia (used by good guys) was instituted by Aslan (allegorical version of God). It is not the magic we are used to, which is demonic power. It is the same as the miracles Jesus performed (those were certainly supernatural, remember?). I know, Jesus didn't do "magic". Well, neither do the characters in Narnia. The only characters in that story that practice actual witchcraft are the evil ones (White Witch, etc.).

By the way, why can't humans imagine a world that is created by God? God gave us an imagination in order to reveal the truth to us through that imagination. Why must our imaginations necessarily have no basis in reality? If a follower of God (like CS Lewis) imagines a world, there is no reason why God should not appear in that imaginary world. If God is in your heart and mind, he most certainly can be in your imagination. That does not mean that God is imaginary, but that our imaginations reflect our knowledge of God.

One final thought, for those who have a problem with the magic in the Chronicles of Narnia or LOTR: Have you ever noticed the difference between those books and books like Harry Potter? The main difference is that when you read Harry Potter, you can feel in your heart that there is something fundamentally wrong with it. They are pervaded by evil throughout, including the good guys. This is not the case with CON or LOTR.

Edited May 13, 2011 by edf203

[HappyChristian]

I agree that there is no good magic. However, the "magic" in the Chronicles of Narnia, for example, is not witchcraft. It is only loosely-defined magic, if one could call God's supernatural ability "magic". The magic in Narnia (used by good guys) was instituted by Aslan (allegorical version of God). It is not the magic we are used to, which is demonic power. It is the same as the miracles Jesus performed (those were certainly supernatural, remember?). I know, Jesus didn't do "magic". Well, neither do the characters in Narnia. The only characters in that story that practice actual witchcraft are the evil ones (White Witch, etc.).

By the way, why can't humans imagine a world that is created by God? God gave us an imagination in order to reveal the truth to us through that imagination. Why must our imaginations necessarily have no basis in reality? If a follower of God (like CS Lewis) imagines a world, there is no reason why God should not appear in that imaginary world. If God is in your heart and mind, he most certainly can be in your imagination. That does not mean that God is imaginary, but that our imaginations reflect our knowledge of God.

One final thought, for those who have a problem with the magic in the Chronicles of Narnia or LOTR: Have you ever noticed the difference between those books and books like Harry Potter? The main difference is that when you read Harry Potter, you can feel in your heart that there is something fundamentally wrong with it. They are pervaded by evil throughout, including the good guys. This is not the case with CON or LOTR.

So, you're equating God's power with magic in fictional stories? Okay, that is way off. Sorry. And, just so you know - Lewis never intended the Chronicles to be allegorical. Christians have taken the series and whitewashed it. That doesn't make it acceptable in God's eyes. No-one ever said it was wrong to write about imaginary worlds. The wrong comes from putting into those imaginary worlds that which God has forbidden in His Word.

LOTR is a Catholic work - the author admits it. And it's to be held up as an example? And, just because (in your opinion), CON and LOTR aren't as "evil" as Harry Potter, it's okay to read them? You know, a little bit of poison kills just as dead as a lot.