Repeating a prayer

[Jerry]

You say they are separate - Romans 10 puts them BOTH together for salvation. Who is right - you or God?

True saving faith involves calling upon the Lord for salvation. Can someone truly have that saving faith if they didn't do so? Romans 10 indicates quite clearly believing in the heart AND calling upon Him is what saves.

[Samer]

Jerry,

Romans 10:13-15 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? (15) And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

1. God sends.
2. Man preaches.
3. Sinner hears.
4. Sinner believes.
5. Sinner calls.

Is this not chronological? Belief clearly precedes calling on the name of the Lord. Do you believe justification is an instantaneous action of grace by the Holy Spirit? Which instant?

[Samer]

True saving faith involves calling upon the Lord for salvation. Can someone truly have that saving faith if they didn't do so?

James 2:14-24... True saving faith involves works. Can someone truly have that saving faith if he doesn't have works?

I guess the question here centers on "confession unto salvation," which I addressed a few posts ago, relating it to "baptism for the remission of sins," with "for" and "unto" being the same Greek word.

[Jerry]

After I logged off, I realized I might have come across stronger than I intended to.

I just think you are making a distinction that the Scriptures do not make:

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, AND shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

The Bible puts them both together - the Bible does not do that the same way with Baptism. Baptism is never equated with salvation - this is. In Acts 2:38, the sense of the passage is be baptized because you have been remitted of your sins already - just as you receive a spedding ticket because you have been speeding - you don't get the ticket so you can speed, neither do we get baptized so we can have our sins remitted - but as a testimony that they already are.

I guess the question here centers on "confession unto salvation," which I addressed a few posts ago, relating it to "baptism for the remission of sins," with "for" and "unto" being the same Greek word.

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Why would Paul use the word "unto" in two totally different ways in the two clauses of the same verse?

[Madeline]

Reason all you want - but don't "reason" away a passage. From a plain reading of Romans 10:9-10, it quite clearly states that this confession IS PART OF HOW TO BE SAVED. These verses are not dealing with what the saved will do AFTER they get saved, but is explaining HOW to be saved.

If you have a conclusion on a passage that contradicts other Scriptures, then the problem is with your understanding of that passage. ALL Scripture on salvation (or on any specific theme) goes together - it is not one verse/passage versus another - it is both. If your conclusion cannot take in all the passages on that theme, then you have the wrong conclusion and have not rightly divided the Word of truth.

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9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Luke 18:9-14 (KJV)

But above you will find and example of a man who prayed who had not faith, the Pharisee, maybe this will answer your question.

Your question means nothing with the matter your discussing.

Wow, nobody's getting it! No one is trying to reason away scripture. I have already provided both of you a contextual and exegetical interpretation of Romans 10:9-13. Apparently you have already come to a conclusion that "salvation involves CONFESSING to God," which it does not state, e.g., it actually says "confess with your mouth." And this is directed by the Apostle Paul to his Jewish brethren, since they continued to refuse to acknowledge Christ as the Messiah. So since you hang all you believe regarding the actual apprehension of eternal (spirit) salvation upon these few verses in Romans, whilst ignoring all of the book of John (where such confession as prayer is NEVER mentioned) and the clear and complete statement by the Apostle Paul in Acts 16:31 regarding the same issue, I suppose I can do nothing more I can say. I can point to 10 times the amount of passages you cite which you "assume" involves prayer for salvation, which states that Salvation is by BELIEVING (Is. 28:16; Lk. 24:27; Jn. 3:16, 18, 36; 5:24; 6:35,40, 47; 11:25, 26; 20:31; Acts 3:24; 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Rom. 1:16; 3:26, 28; 4:16; 9:33; 10:4, 11, 16; Gal. 3:8, 24, 26; Eph. 2:8, 9; Phil. 3:9; etc...). Should these passages be reasoned away too? hmmm......And Jerrynumbers you're not seeing the forest for the trees, both men prayed...one was justified because of his "faith," which is why he prayed. The other wasn't justified for obvious reasons...no faith IN God. Let's use common sense here.

Love,
Madeline

[JJJ4given]

And Jerrynumbers you're not seeing the forest for the trees, both men prayed...one was justified because of his "faith," which is why he prayed. The other wasn't justified for obvious reasons...no faith IN God. Let's use common sense here.

I think he answered your question pretty well with:

<

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Luke 18:9-14 (KJV)

But above you will find and example of a man who prayed who had not faith, the Pharisee, maybe this will answer your question.

I've also seen other reasons why a person might pray without faith. For instance, a pastor telling them to a repeat a prayer. Which is what this thread is all about =P.

And this is directed by the Apostle Paul to his Jewish brethren, since they continued to refuse to acknowledge Christ as the Messiah. So since you hang all you believe regarding the actual apprehension of eternal (spirit) salvation upon these few verses in Romans, whilst ignoring all of the book of John (where such confession as prayer is NEVER mentioned) and the clear and complete statement by the Apostle Paul in Acts 16:31 regarding the same issue, I suppose I can do nothing more I can say.

Also, Madeline, there is no possible way that these verses could be directed toward Paul's lost "Jewish brethren" who wouldn't acknowledge Christ as the Messiah. He wrote it to the churches in Rome. What for?

Romans 15:24 Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company.

28 When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.

Paul was seeking support from those churches in Rome for a missionary journey to Spain. If he wanted to write something to the lost Jews, he would address it to them. However, that is not the case. Anyhow, that can be for another discussion.

God bless!

[Madeline]

I think he answered your question pretty well with:

.......I've also seen other reasons why a person might pray without faith. For instance, a pastor telling them to a repeat a prayer. Which is what this thread is all about =P.

Again, the point is being missed here. Of course a person can pray "without" faith. The point is that only one man (publican) was "justified,"...however it is not his prayer that justified him, it was his faith and his faith led to his prayer.

Also, Madeline, there is no possible way that these verses could be directed toward Paul's lost "Jewish brethren" who wouldn't acknowledge Christ as the Messiah. He wrote it to the churches in Rome. What for?

Romans 15:24 Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company.

28 When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.

Paul was seeking support from those churches in Rome for a missionary journey to Spain. If he wanted to write something to the lost Jews, he would address it to them. However, that is not the case. Anyhow, that can be for another discussion.

God bless!

I don't see what Paul's wanting to go to Spain has to do with whether or not Rom. 10 is addressed to Jews. You have to understand that whilst it is true that Romans was written during the time when Israel was still God's chosen People, some truths are universal. Let me explain that. Some things are true for only one dispensation. For example, whilst Israel was God's People, the calling of believers was to the Land of Israel on earth for the millennium. But once Israel had been put aside as God's People the calling of believers is to heavenly places. That is an example of a dispensational truth, i.e. one that is true for one dispensation, but not for another. On the other hand, some truths are universal. Salvation by faith is an example of a universal truth. That is to say, Heb. 11, for example speaks of everyone from Abel on who "believed" God's message for them and were thereby saved. So salvation by grace through faith is a universal truth. It is true for all people of every dispensation. Rom. 10:9-13 is about salvation, therefore it is a universal truth and applies to every person of every dispensaiton. Note for example verse 12, "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek; for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon His name". This is a universal truth. But dispensationally speaking there certainly was a difference between Jews and Greeks in the previous dispensation when Romans was written. Consider for example that we read in Rom. 9:4 about Israel that it was to them that "pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenant, and the giving of the law, and the servies of God and the promises". This is an example of a dispensational truth. Rom. 10:9-13 is basically a universal truth even though it does quote from the OT and it was written whilst Israel was still God's People.

Love,
Madeline

[Jerry]

That is an example of a dispensational truth, i.e. one that is true for one dispensation, but not for another.

Don't take this as offensive, because I am not trying to be - just wanted to express a word of caution.

I know what you are trying to say here, but it is a very poor way of explaining things - and could lead to trouble. There is no such thing that is true for this person and not true for that person, true for this time and not true for that time. It would be a whole lot better to state something like this: This promise is for the Old Testament Jew, or this statement promise is for believers of all times, ie. applicable to all.

It is not a matter of true or not true - all of God's Word is truth - but the application is limited in some instances.

[Madeline]

Don't take this as offensive, because I am not trying to be - just wanted to express a word of caution.

I know what you are trying to say here, but it is a very poor way of explaining things - and could lead to trouble. There is no such thing that is true for this person and not true for that person, true for this time and not true for that time. It would be a whole lot better to state something like this: This promise is for the Old Testament Jew, or this statement promise is for believers of all times, ie. applicable to all.

It is not a matter of true or not true - all of God's Word is truth - but the application is limited in some instances.

You suggested a better way to put it is that some truths apply to some but not to others. That's just semantics and I wouldn't argue the point. I will say however, that the Term "universal truth" is not mine originally, it is accepted among many Bible teachers.

Love,
Madeline

[JJJ4given]

Anyhow, totally detracting off the OP:

Madeline, there is no indication that this is written to Israel and, in fact, since Israel is referred to in the third person every time in the book of Romans, this cannot be directed toward Israelites. It was directed to the Gentiles.

Now let's get back on topic! :lol

God bless!

[Madeline]

Anyhow, totally detracting off the OP:

Madeline, there is no indication that this is written to Israel and, in fact, since Israel is referred to in the third person every time in the book of Romans, this cannot be directed toward Israelites. It was directed to the Gentiles.

Now let's get back on topic! :lol

God bless!

Of course Paul addressed his epistle to the Roman church, but the context of the passage with which you are having difficulty starts with verse one of the chapter (10), in which he then is concerned specifically about the lost condition of "Israel." And the primary reason his Jewish brethren (in the flesh) were lost was because they refused to "confess" ("with the mouth"), i.e., acknowledge, that Jesus was the Messiah. Paul gave the ONLY complete way a person can become a Christian when he was asked specifically how to do so in Acts 16:30, 31. Furthermore, most evangelicals freely admit that the book of John was specifically written for the purpose of informing a lost world how one must be saved (John 20:31). And the most used and famous verse for bringing a person to Christ is John 3:16. In this verse, in fact in the whole of John, there is nothing mentioned or directed regarding that a person must "pray" for his salvation. He or she must only make a decision of faith, i.e., believing God's Word regarding His Son. It is by one's decision of faith that a person is saved (Ephesians 2:8) plus and minus nothing. Salvation may be obtained by "faith alone" in Christ alone!

Love,
Madeline

[Jerry]

And the primary reason his Jewish brethren (in the flesh) were lost was because they refused to "confess" ("with the mouth"), i.e., acknowledge, that Jesus was the Messiah.

Are you referring here to confessing before men or before God? If confessing before men, then you have contradictions with what you are saying - ie. not being saved until they bear witness to others. Confessing to God still involves prayer.

Psalms 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

Proverbs 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Why do we think we need to "confess our sins" (ie. specifically pray about them) to God to be forgiven AS BELIEVERS, but yet somehow think someone will be saved in the first place without doing that?

Leviticus 5:5 And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these things, that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that thing:

Leviticus 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;

Numbers 5:7 Then they shall confess their sin which they have done: and he shall recompense his trespass with the principal thereof, and add unto it the fifth part thereof, and give it unto him against whom he hath trespassed.

Joshua 7:19 And Joshua said unto Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the LORD God of Israel, and make confession unto him; and tell me now what thou hast done; hide it not from me.

2 Chronicles 30:22 And Hezekiah spake comfortably unto all the Levites that taught the good knowledge of the LORD: and they did eat throughout the feast seven days, offering peace offerings, and making confession to the LORD God of their fathers.

Ezra 10:1 Now when Ezra had prayed, and when he had confessed, weeping and casting himself down before the house of God, there assembled unto him out of Israel a very great congregation of men and women and children: for the people wept very sore.

Ezra 10:11 Now therefore make confession unto the LORD God of your fathers, and do his pleasure: and separate yourselves from the people of the land, and from the strange wives.

Nehemiah 1:6 Let thine ear now be attentive, and thine eyes open, that thou mayest hear the prayer of thy servant, which I pray before thee now, day and night, for the children of Israel thy servants, and confess the sins of the children of Israel, which we have sinned against thee: both I and my father's house have sinned.

Nehemiah 9:2 And the seed of Israel separated themselves from all strangers, and stood and confessed their sins, and the iniquities of their fathers.

Nehemiah 9:3 And they stood up in their place, and read in the book of the law of the LORD their God one fourth part of the day; and another fourth part they confessed, and worshipped the LORD their God.

Job 40:14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee. (God speaking to Job - but indicating that confessing was more than just thinking something, but addressing the person the confession was to.)

Daniel 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

Matthew 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. (Confession involves addressing someone else - not just thinking about something - in this case, not just thinking Jesus is the Messiah, but stating that to others.)

Mark 1:5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

Luke 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

John 1:20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. (John the Baptist didn't just think about what they were saying, he specifically spoke to them about it.)

John 9:22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue. (ie. Professing their faith to another - not just thinking in their heart Jesus is the Messiah.)

John 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

Acts 19:18 And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds.

Acts 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both. (ie. testify about both.)

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. (Not just agree in their heart, but state it to God Himself.)

Romans 15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Timothy 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. (ie. confessed to those who were around them, they were witnesses, not just thinking this in their heart.)

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

[Jerry]

All we have is your personal opinion that calling upon the name of the Lord doesn't involve prayer - but as the Scriptures quoted shows, it does. So I am not going to let you explain away several clear verses, when it is just your opinion that it means something else. God says that we had to confess to Him to be saved - no other way around it - except it contradicts with your personal opinions in this matter.

[Madeline]

All we have is your personal opinion that calling upon the name of the Lord doesn't involve prayer - but as the Scriptures quoted shows, it does. So I am not going to let you explain away several clear verses, when it is just your opinion that it means something else. God says that we had to confess to Him to be saved - no other way around it - except it contradicts with your personal opinions in this matter.

Not sure how many times I have to emphasize this, but we are saved by faith alone

[Jerry]

I already answered your questions - you just refuse to take those passages at face value, and choose to contradict them by other passages. They all go together. No one is forgiven as a Christian until we confess our sins to God - we must go to Him, and confess those sins to Him BEFORE we are forgiven of them (ie. to restore fellowship with the Lord) and cleansed of those sins - why should the Lord forgive the lost person who doesn't confess his sins and need of the Saviour? I don't find anywhere in Scripture that it says just believe that you ARE saved - I find over and over where it says receive Jesus, receive His gift of salvation, confess to Him, drink of the living water, call upon Him, etc. These are all actions, not just mental processes.

I am not explaining very well what I am trying to say here. I need to finish getting ready for work and head out.