Protestants

[MrJim]

How about the protestant churches? As baptists we generally don't consider ourselves as protestants. Would we consider them false religions?

Lutheran, Presbys, Methodists, Anglicans at the very least practice infant baptism and often have other differences (view of communion) than we do, though they tend not to be dealt with on the same level as JW/Mormon/Catholic differences.

:ears:

[jamesnc2006]

I would consider any church that does not follow "Biblical Doctrines" to be apostate, a little wrong is still wrong. :cool

[John81]

As with all churches or denominations or what-not, they must be judged by whether or not they believe and follow the fundamentals of the Scripture.

Believing one is saved by grace through faith, and nothing more, is one of the most fundamental points. Those who believe baptism saves a lost soul, or is a part of saving a lost soul, are preaching "another gospel", which is no Gospel at all but rather a false teaching that leads away from Christ and salvation.

[kevinmiller]

I would consider any church that does not follow "Biblical Doctrines" to be apostate' date=' a little wrong is still wrong. :cool[/quote']
It does not make them apostate. And remember, there are many Baptist churches that have some incorrect doctrines. It's called humanity. Nobody's perfect. I think that if we actually got to know some of the "foreign" denominations that we so easily speak negatively of, that they are just normal people trying to do their best to please God but have grown up or been taught doctrines that are not Biblical. It doesn't make them apostate.

In response to the OP, I don't think that they should be dealt with in the same way. JW's, Mormons and Catholics are by and large, unsaved, so we deal with them as we would an unsaved person. Many protestant churches, however, believe in salvation by grace and should be dealt with as fellow believers.

[Will]

I agree. Fellow believers, but not partners in ministry.

[kevinmiller]

I agree with you to a certain extent. I don't think churches should be yoking up with churches of other doctrines, necessarily. But on the other hand, I don't really see a problem with individuals working with other churches for a common good so long as you don't have to promote or conform to their doctrine.

[Will]

I agree with you to a certain extent. I don't think churches should be yoking up with churches of other doctrines' date=' necessarily. But on the other hand, I don't really see a problem with individuals working with other churches for a common good so long as you don't have to promote or conform to their doctrine.[/quote']

Perhaps. I'd personally have no problem protesting an abortion clinic with a bunch of Presby's, Baptists, and other Christians.

[Jerry]

Lutheran, Presbys, Methodists, Anglicans

Actually most of these denominations ARE apostate - that means they once stood on the truth but have since departed from it. Both Lutherans and Anglicans (that is the Episcopal church in the US - and yes, they are now ordaining homosexuals and the leaders do not believe the Bible) have run back to Rome. Presbyterians (as a denomination) are bigtime out there - except for Free Presbyterian, who are KJVonly and very similar to IFB in a lot of ways. Methodists are a big hodgepodge, but many groups within them are apostate.

Now saying a denomination is apostate doesn't mean everyone in them is - however, they are wrong to be in a church/denomination that has turned from the truth.

[kevinmiller]

How are Presbyterians "big-time out there"? :huh:

[Jerry]

Taken from the Way Of Life Encyclopedia:

There are at least eight Presbyterian denominations in the U.S.

The Bible Presbyterian Church is a fundamentalist group with membership of roughly 10,000. It stands for old-line Presbyterian doctrine and is openly opposed to ecumenism and modernism. It's origin is traced to the Fundamentalist-Modernist controversies of the early 20th century. Conservative Presbyterians who were opposed to theological modernism set up their own seminary and mission board to offer an alternative to the ones which had been taken over by liberal thought. The leaders of this conservative movement were brought to trial by the denomination and defrocked. The apostates charged the Bible believers with heresy! The group which subsequently pulled out of the old-line Presbyterian denomination formed two different independent groups: The Orthodox Presbyterian Church, led by J. Gresham Machen, and the Bible Presbyterian Church, led by Carl McIntire. In 1941 the Bible Presbyterians joined with other fundamentalists to form the American Council of Christian Churches in opposition to the liberal National Council of Churches in America. In addition to standing against modernism and ecumenism, the Bible Presbyterian Church (BPC) granted autonomy to the local assembly. Unlike the liberal Presbyterian denominations, each church in the BPC owns its own property and calls its own pastor. In contrast to this, the old-line Presbyterian denomination "entered suits in the civil courts against scores of churches that had withdrawn, and in almost every instance the defending local church lost its property to the denomination. This was in spite of the fact that in most cases the local churches had purchased their property with no financial aid from the denomination" (David O. Beale, In Pursuit of Purity, p. 319).

The Free Presbyterian Church has a similar heritage. They stand firmly in the old Presbyterian faith, are strictly separated from the apostasy of the hour, hold to the Authorized English Bible, and exercise autonomy of the local assembly. The Free Presbyterians were founded in 1951 in Northern Ireland. The fiery fundamental Presbyterian Ian Paisley is identified with the Free Presbyterians. There are 17 of these congregations in North America and roughly 100 in the world. (I removed the section on what this church believes and practices, as they are not apostate, and it is not relevant to this dicussion. I can post it if needed though.)

The Presbyterian Church U.S.A. (PC-USA) is the largest Presbyterian denomination in America, with roughly 3,000,000 members in 11,500 churches. It was formed in 1983 from a merger of the United Presbyterian Church in the U.S.A. and the Presbyterian Church in the United States. These two denominations had resulted from a division along the lines of North and South following the outbreak of the Civil War, and were reunited in the 1983 merger. The Presbyterian Church U.S.A. is modernistic and radically ecumenical. It is a member of the National and World Council of Churches. Like most liberal denominations, the PC-USA has been losing members steadily. The denominations which formed the Presbyterian Church U.S.A. lost 1.3 million members between 1965 and 1992. Membership in the PC-USA has been declining by 30,000 to 40,000 a year.

The PC-USA and Ecumenism. The Presbyterian Church U.S.A. is a member of the radical National and World Council of Churches. Mainline Presbyterians were instrumental in the founding of these liberal bodies in 1948 and 1950. The PC-USA maintains dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church. The ecumenical mindset of the average Presbyterian minister is reflected in an article written by Dr. Richard Lovelace, professor of Church History at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary and an ordained Presbyterian Church U.S.A. minister. In his article Three Streams, One River? Lovelace not only cited examples of the fact that Catholics, charismatics and evangelicals are moving closer together-he actually advocates and seeks to encourage such unscriptural unity. ... Dr. Lovelace says that Roman Catholics, Orthodox and Anglicans have much to contribute to the formation of a "united church which is truly Catholic, Evangelical and Pentecostal." In 1986 the PC-USA General Assembly voted to share ministry and sacraments with the Lutheran denominations which formed the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. Efforts to absorb Presbyterians with other liberal denominations in the States have been in progress though the Consultation on Church Union (COCU) since 1961. This attempted union of Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Methodists, United Church of Christ, Disciples of Christ, and others has been making steady progress through the years. In June 1993 The PC-USA approved a proposal to enter into covenant communion with the other denominations in the COCU.

The PC-USA and Modernism. The gospel promoted in the PC-USA is primarily a false social gospel. In 1984, moderator Harriet Nelson said, "The Gospel is not just telling people they are saved. It also means meeting needs-things like providing food for the hungry and clothing for the naked." The PC-USA supports all sorts of radical social-political causes in the world, but gives very little to evangelistic work. A survey taken in 1986 revealed that only 5% of the "clergy" and 16% of the membership in the PC-USA believe the Bible is to be taken literally. More than 75% of those polled rejected the idea that those who have not heard of Jesus Christ will be damned. In 1987 the PC-USA adopted a report which says that Christians and Jews worship the same God and that Jews are already in a covenant relationship with God and do not therefore need to be born again through faith in Jesus Christ to enjoy such a covenant. In 1982 the United Presbyterian Church ordained Mansfield Kaseman in spite of the fact that he denied that Jesus Christ is God, that He was sinless, and that Christ rose bodily from the dead. In typical neo-orthodox doublespeak Kaseman said, "I believe in the resurrection without necessarily believing in the bodily resurrection." When asked if Jesus is God, he replied, "No, God is God." Yet the presbytery voted 165-59 to admit Kaseman to the Presbyterian ministry. Also in 1982 the director of the United Presbyterian missions program, G. Daniel Little, rebuked fundamentalists for supporting creationism, and labeled the literal creation view "denial of the living God" and "calcifying of narrow, outdated views." The "Brief Statement of Faith" approved at the 1991 General Assembly of the PC-USA contained no clear affirmation of the Trinity; made no reference to Heaven, Hell, or the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ, but it affirmed sexual equality and environmental concerns.

The PC-USA and Abortion. The PC-USA is a member of the Religious Coalition for Abortion Rights, which seeks "to encourage and coordinate support for safeguarding the legal option of abortion." Its 1985 Assembly reaffirmed its support for the right to abortion and determined that no new studies on abortion be undertaken. This was a move to permanently silence abortion opponents within the denomination.

The PC-USA and Homosexuals. A vote to disassociate the PC-USA from homosexual ministries within the denomination failed by a margin of 2-1 at its 1984 Assembly. The PC-USA has a formal policy that allows for homosexuals to be received as members, and even allows for the ordination of homosexuals as long as they do not engage in same-sex relationships. In practice, homosexuals within the PC-USA carry on with their perverted lifestyles, and the PC-USA brings no discipline against them. The committee which recommended the change in homosexual policy in 1991 equated "sexism" and "heterosexism" with "racism" and condemned resistance to homosexuality as homophobia. In 1992 an openly homosexual woman, a divorced mother, was ordained to the Presbyterian ministry. The 1988 assembly of the Presbytery of Genesse Valley, New York, invited the Rochester Gay Men's Chorus to perform a concert. In 1991 the PC-USA filed a "friend-of- the-court" legal brief in support of the attempt to overthrow Kentucky's sodomy law. In 1992 the PC-USA Committee on Educational Ministry recommended that the denomination refuse to allow Boy Scout troops to use their church basements. This was intended to punish scouts for their policy of barring homosexuals from being troop leaders. Erig Graninger, associate general counsel for the Presbyterians, said, "It is not for the state to tell the citizens of Kentucky what their morals should be." Delegates to the 1993 PC-USA Assembly voted to support Clinton's effort to remove the military's ban on homosexuals.

The PC-USA and Feminism. The predecessor Presbyterian bodies which formed the PC-USA have long been involved in feminist causes. The Presbyterian Church in the USA was the first of the mainstream religious bodies to ordain women as ruling elders in 1930. By 1993 PC-USA had 2,419 ordained women ministers. Women were elected to head the PC-USA in 1984 and again in 1989. It is interesting that 61% of PC-USA membership is female. The new Presbyterian hymnal adopted inclusive language for God and deleted "Onward, Christian Soldiers" because of the "military imagery." The PC-USA contributed a grant of $66,000 to sponsor the WCC Re-imagining conference November 1993 in Minneapolis, Minnesota. The most radical forms of feminism and goddess worship were promoted at this meeting. The conference coincided with the midpoint of the Ecumenical Decade of the Churches in Solidarity with Women, an initiative of the World Council of Churches that began in 1988.

The PC-USA and Paganism. The Utica, New York, Presbytery of the PC-USA appropriated $700 to bring a Buddhist monk from Bangkok to Utica to train local Asians in Buddhist doctrine. They said they wanted to protect the Asian culture. The 1992 General Assembly of the PC-USA was opened with a pagan Indian ritual to expel unwanted spirits and attract desired ones. In March 1989, a witch named Starhawk addressed the San Francisco Presbyterian Theological Seminary. She spoke under the auspices of a campus group called the Feminist Perspectives Committee which attempts to raise awareness concerning feminist issues. The witch performed ritual chants as prayers to "the powers under the earth." Starhawk is a licensed priestess of the Covenant of the Goddess. She referred often to the "Mother-Father God," a concept used in feminist theology.

Presbyterians participated in the production of the National Council of Churches inclusive language lectionary, which removed masculine references to God; addressed God as "Father and Mother"; deleted passages which instruct the wife to submit to the husband; changed many words, such as "son" to "child," "king" to "ruler," "kingdom" to "realm"; and added the names of wives to the O.T. genealogies. A paper entitled "Theologies Written from Feminist Perspectives" was distributed at the 1988 General Assembly of the PC-USA. The author, Cythia Campbell of the Austin Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Texas, said that many feminists reject the concept of redemption because it "reinforces a notion of human passivity ... and, they question whether the worship of a redeemer who is male is possible or healthy for women." Campbell admits that feminist theology is open to "goddess religion and Wicca, more popularly known as witchcraft." At the 1988 assembly of the Presbytery of Genesse Valley, New York, a liturgy was distributed which had been written by a lesbian Episcopal priest. Included were the words: "We give you thanks, O empowering Mother, for our sisters and brothers in all nations-black, brown, yellow, red, and white; older and younger; richer and poorer; lesbians, gay men, lovers, spouses, parents, children, teachers and learners; workers in many tasks; siblings in a common home."

As we have noted, the PC-USA was a chief sponsor of the World Council of Churches Re-imagining Conference in Minneapolis, Minnesota, in November 1993. A key theme was the celebration of Sophia, the supposed goddess of creation. The conferees joined together in repeating a prayer to Sophia, including these words: "Our maker Sophia, we are women in your image. ... Sophia, creator God ... shower us with your love. ... we invite a lover, we birth a child; with our warm body fluids we remind the world of its pleasures and sensations. ... Our guide, Sophia, we are women in your image. ... With the honey of wisdom in our mouths, we prophesy a full humanity to all the peoples." Korea's Chung Hyung Kyung told the crowd, "My bowel is Buddhist bowel, my heart is Buddhist heart, my right brain is Confucian brain, and my left brain is Christian brain."

The PC-USA and Charismatics. Brick Bradford, general secretary of the Presbyterian and Reformed Renewal Ministries International, estimates that 10 to 15 percent of the Presbyterian clergy are charismatic, but only a handful of their congregations are. Members of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) and the small Evangelical Presbyterian Church support the renewal more so than other Presbyterian denominations, he says (Christian News, May 19, 1986).

The PC-USA and Immorality. Divorce and immorality are rampant in the liberal denominations because there is no clear separation from the world. We have seen the denomination's tolerant attitude toward homosexuality. A report entitled "Sexuality, Spirituality and Social Justice was distributed throughout the PC-USA in 1990-91. It said "the moral for Christians ought not be marriage, but rather justice-love. ... Where there is justice-love, sexual expression has ethical integrity. That moral principle applies to single, as well as to married, persons, to gay, lesbian and bisexual persons, as well as to heterosexual persons." The report indicated that a person can have sexual relations outside of marriage and still be right with God.

Presbyterians outside of the U.S.A. Presbyterian denominations in many lands are being absorbed into larger ecumenical bodies. The Presbyterians in India united with Methodists, Anglicans and others to form the Church of South India in 1947 and the Church of North India in 1970. Seventy-five percent of the Presbyterians in Australia united with Congregationalists and Methodists in 1977 to form the Uniting Church of Australia. The Presbyterians in Canada merged with the Methodists, Congregationals, and Evangelical United Brethren in 1968 to form the United Church of Canada. Similar ecumenical accords have happened in Nigeria, South Africa, and Belgium.

[kevinmiller]

I'm not familiar with US Presbyterian groups so I don't know one way or the other. I'm only familiar with a Presbyterian church in Korea.

[Jerry]

Perhaps they are not as far gone over there as they are here. We know we are in the endtimes and that many will depart from the faith - so it shouldn't be a surprise to any of us that the majority of the main denominations are already apostate.

[kevinmiller]

Yeah, they certainly aren't anything like the PC-USA.

[MrJim]

But wouldn't infant baptism automatically dismiss most of these groups regardless of how orthodox they otherwise may be?

[Will]

But wouldn't infant baptism automatically dismiss most of these groups regardless of how orthodox they otherwise may be?

Depends on their belief on infant Baptism. Lutherans believe that baptism is a necessary part of salvation, and thus of infants. Presbyterians however use baptism of infants as a symbol of God's grace extended to the family of believers(ie, most of the time children who are born to Christian parents tend to become Christian themselves), and don't believe there is any salvific value to the act of baptism.