John Piper

[heartstrings]

I did not even mention sanctification.

For because
God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost
so loved loved so much
the world the whole world in its entirety;past present future,
He gave God is a giver, my friend. He is not selfish
His something very precious that belonged to Him
only the only one He had
begotten something that was part of Him
Son the Creator of the Universe
that whosoever God is no respecter of persons, my friend. "whosoever" is open to anybody. http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/search/word,whosoever
Love does not care how you look, what color you are, how smart you are, or who your parents are. Love is pure. It doesn't flaunt itself, it rejoices in the truth, it never fails, it is kind and it is faithful. God loves everyone, my friend.
believeth put your trust in Come with childlike faith
in Him who? Jesus Christ and His work on Calvary.
should not perish but have everlasting life.

2 Peter 3:9 says he wants all to come to repentence. Why would He bother to say that, if He already "predestined" you for Hell anyway?
2 Peter 3:9 also says He is not willing that any should perish. Why on the samhill would He say that if He had already willed you to go to Hell before the foundation of the world.
Sounds like a contradiction, dear friend.

God will get glory, as a matter of fact, He already has it..... yes. But better than that, God will get love...because He first loved us.
God is holy, but He is not "holyness", God is righteous, but He is not righteousness, God is merciful, but He is not mercy, God is gracious, but He is not grace.....God is Love. Love is righteous, holy, merciful, gracious, just, all knowing, and all powerful.
God is love.

[hayesy]

I did not even mention sanctification.

But you did mention:

to be conformed to the image of Christ

That is the same thing, no? Becomming more holy?
If you don't agree, replace every instance of the word 'sanctification' in my post with the phrase "the process of being conformed to Christ's image", and I will still stand by what I wrote.

For because
God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost
so loved loved so much
the world the whole world in its entirety;past present future,
He gave God is a giver, my friend. He is not selfish
His something very precious that belonged to Him
only the only one He had
begotten something that was part of Him
Son the Creator of the Universe
that whosoever God is no respecter of persons, my friend. "whosoever" is open to anybody. http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/search/word,whosoever
Love does not care how you look, what color you are, how smart you are, or who your parents are. Love is pure. It doesn't flaunt itself, it rejoices in the truth, it never fails, it is kind and it is faithful. God loves everyone, my friend.
believeth put your trust in Come with childlike faith
in Him who? Jesus Christ and His work on Calvary.
should not perish but have everlasting life.

I agree with every single word of that. And I hold to the doctrine of predestination. If you cannot see how I can can agree with you and still believe predestination, you misunderstand predestination.

I'd like to just make a very kind request of you heartstrings. Can you please stop telling me God is love. Not because I disagree with it, but because, by the sheer repeditiveness of it you are making me suspect you think I don't know that. It sounds like you think I don't know God is love; which is actually sort of offensive, since I do know that and since I have now told you that repeatedly.
You may be sure that I know God is love, and that He loves everybody. And you may be sure that the doctrine of election does not negate that. If you think that the statement "God is love" somehow dissolves any suggestion of predestination, you are sorely mistaken in your conception of predestination.
There now, let that put you at rest. Yes, God is love.

Furthermore, 'whosoever' does not negate predestination either. Indeed, I firmly believe that anyone who hears the gospel is able to make a choice and believe it. Yes, to spell it out, I believe they make a choice. But I think the Bible clearly teaches that, when we look back on those who have made that decision, we will find that it was God who predestined those choices.
So, as I have said, John 3:16 is not an argument either way, both sides agree with it.

I have offered two different explanations of 2 Peter 3:9, one of which you ignored and the other you refused even to read.
Moreover, in my last post I gave copious direct scripture references to God's predestination of salvation. Would you care to explain them?
Or even just 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

(Did you even read them? Or are you so set in your ways that you would skip them and repeat the same thing as before? All I ask is that you listen to scripture.)

In fact, consider it this way: I see your 2 Peter 3:9 and raise you 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and 1 Corinthians 1:26-29; as well as 1 Thessalonians 1:4; Ephesians 1:4,5; Ephesians 1:11; Romans 11:5-8; Romans 9:18; Romans 9:21-22; Matthew 24:22,24,31; John 15:16; Romans 8:29-30; 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Peter 2:9; 2 Peter 1:10 and still un-explained, Acts 13:48.

Heartstrings, I'm sorry if this post has had a harsh tone. I don't mean it to be harsh, I just have trouble with words.

matie-k, an excellent point. I agree, completely and unreservedly. We can work out only so much this side of the grave.
I've heard someone explain the interplay explained like this (but, of course, imperfectly): As we approach the Cross we see a door in the base of it with a sign on in that reads "Whosoever will, come in". Once through, however, we look back at the door and see that it says "Thus enters God's chosen people." And both signs are correct.

[John81]

I've heard a preacher say an illustration that goes something like this: There are dichotomies in doctrine and in knowing God, and it's like trying to stuff it all in suitcase. You get all of one side stuffed in and all tidy and zipped up only to realize that it's bursting out the other side, so you work on that side and realize that the other side is again coming undone because it's just too much. When you do finally get it all zipped up shut, you look around and realize that something has been left out.

I feel that both of these sides have valid arguments, and I think it's one of these cases where you just can't get it all figured out, and we'll probably spend a long time even in Heaven still trying to learn the mystery of God's salvation. If you're dogmatic on one side or the other, then you're leaving something out.

That's very similar to what C. H. Spurgeon said on the matter.

[zealyouthguy]

That's very similar to what C. H. Spurgeon said on the matter.

What a liberal... :cool

[hayesy]

Can anyone help me out with this?

An interesting question just occurred to me:
Do 'Free-willer's believe God could (has the power to) predestine people?

[heartstrings]

But you did mention:

That is the same thing, no? Becomming more holy?
If you don't agree, replace every instance of the word 'sanctification' in my post with the phrase "the process of being conformed to Christ's image", and I will still stand by what I wrote.


I agree with every single word of that. And I hold to the doctrine of predestination. If you cannot see how I can can agree with you and still believe predestination, you misunderstand predestination.

I'd like to just make a very kind request of you heartstrings. Can you please stop telling me God is love. Not because I disagree with it, but because, by the sheer repeditiveness of it you are making me suspect you think I don't know that. It sounds like you think I don't know God is love; which is actually sort of offensive, since I do know that and since I have now told you that repeatedly.
You may be sure that I know God is love, and that He loves everybody. And you may be sure that the doctrine of election does not negate that. If you think that the statement "God is love" somehow dissolves any suggestion of predestination, you are sorely mistaken in your conception of predestination.
There now, let that put you at rest. Yes, God is love.

Furthermore, 'whosoever' does not negate predestination either. Indeed, I firmly believe that anyone who hears the gospel is able to make a choice and believe it. Yes, to spell it out, I believe they make a choice. But I think the Bible clearly teaches that, when we look back on those who have made that decision, we will find that it was God who predestined those choices.
So, as I have said, John 3:16 is not an argument either way, both sides agree with it.

I have offered two different explanations of 2 Peter 3:9, one of which you ignored and the other you refused even to read.
Moreover, in my last post I gave copious direct scripture references to God's predestination of salvation. Would you care to explain them?
Or even just 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

(Did you even read them? Or are you so set in your ways that you would skip them and repeat the same thing as before? All I ask is that you listen to scripture.)

In fact, consider it this way: I see your 2 Peter 3:9 and raise you 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and 1 Corinthians 1:26-29; as well as 1 Thessalonians 1:4; Ephesians 1:4,5; Ephesians 1:11; Romans 11:5-8; Romans 9:18; Romans 9:21-22; Matthew 24:22,24,31; John 15:16; Romans 8:29-30; 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Peter 2:9; 2 Peter 1:10 and still un-explained, Acts 13:48.

Heartstrings, I'm sorry if this post has had a harsh tone. I don't mean it to be harsh, I just have trouble with words.

matie-k, an excellent point. I agree, completely and unreservedly. We can work out only so much this side of the grave.
I've heard someone explain the interplay explained like this (but, of course, imperfectly): As we approach the Cross we see a door in the base of it with a sign on in that reads "Whosoever will, come in". Once through, however, we look back at the door and see that it says "Thus enters God's chosen people." And both signs are correct.

Brother,
Sanctification is going on, in the believer's life, right here and right now, on earth. But none of us will be perfected until we are caught up to meet the Lord.. To be fully conformed to His image...that is what we are "predestined" for.




Rom 1:18

[hayesy]

To be fully conformed to His image...that is what we are "predestined" for.

That doesn't explain this:

2 Thessalonians 2:13 wrote:
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

You asked of me "Do you deny what the Bible says?". I now ask you exactly the same question. Do you deny what the verse above says? Or indeed any of the numerous verses I have repeatedly posted and that you have repeatedly ignored.

Rom 1:18

[Jerry]

God isn't pleased to crush the lost/wicked.

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

2 Thessalonians 2:13 wrote: But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

All I see here is that God's way of saving someone is through the work of the Holy Spirit and the belief of the truth - the verse DOES NOT SAY that God forced anyone to belief or saved them apart from any choice of their own.

[kevinmiller]

I, for one, would like to see someone give a good explanation for "chosen you to salvation." I'm curious about it myself.

[bzmomo7]

I' date=' for one, would like to see someone give a good explanation for "chosen you to salvation." I'm curious about it myself.[/quote']

I'm not 100% ironed out on this issue either. Would someone (who knows how to do it--not me) consider moving this part of the thread & labeling it under predestination? It is a bit much off topic, is it not? I almost missed it completely......just looked because I was curious how you managed 15 pages on John Piper!

[kevinmiller]

Yeah, I'm not sure where I stand. I feel that it is somewhere in the middle. I think this may be an issue that is past our finite understanding.

I must say, however, that I'm finding the "God is love" argument a bit unconvincing. Maybe someone could present the free-will side a little better but I don't think that HS is addressing the point or the arguments. No offense HS. :smile

[heartstrings]

That doesn't explain this:

2 Thessalonians 2:13 wrote:
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

I'm with Jerry on this one: says nothing about forcing anyone to beleive.

You asked of me "Do you deny what the Bible says?". I now ask you exactly the same question. Do you deny what the verse above says? Or indeed any of the numerous verses I have repeatedly posted and that you have repeatedly ignored.

Sorry man, I haven't had the time to study each one of those verses...yet. It's not that I have ignored. I really want to do it.

Rom 1:18

[pneu-engine]

I have never, not once, denied that we make a choice. I agree, we are without excuse because of the choices we have made. I AGREE: MAN HAS A WILL. We make choices.
But, God predestined those choices to happen. How the heck does that work? I trust that there are some things we can't comprehend this side of the grave, but I know that God is God, I reckon He is powerful enough to do it.

hayesy

To you I say, sir::::

When an individual claims to be a believer but cannot refrain from euphemisms of Biblical terms and using them in a vain fashion, immediately I must think that he is pushing his own agenda. :roll

[kevinmiller]

PE, some people don't realize that is a bad word. Other posters on here have also used various euphemisms. It doesn't mean that they are trying to "push their own agenda." I think that kind of accusation is completely as a result of personal bias.

I really wish someone would respond to 2 Thessalonians 2:13. It's easy to say that God doesn't force anyone to believe. But if that verse does not refer to God choosing who would be saved, then please explain what it does mean.

[dwayner79]

What the heck is PE talking about?

(sorry couldn't resist)