When Did the Church Begin

[Madeline]

The church of God is believers, so the church of God began with the first believers, Adam and Eve. Eph 1:22-23 refers to the church as His body which is the church of the present day.

Love,
Madeline

[Madeline]

In regard to the church of God: "the church of God" is the term used of local churches and the universal church. By "universal church" I mean that church to which ALL believers are members regardless of their dispensational standing. For example, today believers are members both of the church of God and the church which is His body.

The church of God is the universal church. It existed during the Gospel period and during the Acts period. It is built upon the truth that Christ is the Son of God. It was comprised mainly of Jewish believers and when Paul was converted and began preaching to the Gentiles, Gentiles were added to the church to make Israel jealous (see Rom. 11:11).

In the present dispensation, Israel has been set aside as God's chosen nation and there are no Jews and Gentiles. That is to say that God sees all people as people of the nations. Because God has put Israel aside there can be no Gentiles because there are no Jews, i.e. no Israel. If we don't see a difference between the church of the present dispensation and the universal church of God we have non-existent Gentiles making non-existing Jews jealous..

So everyone who believes that Christ is the Son of God, including those of the past and those of the present dispensations are members of the church of God. But the church which is the Body of Christ did not begin until Israel was set aside at the end of the Acts period.

Below is the list of every occurrence of the term "church of God" You will see by this list that there is absolutely nothing dispensational about it. That is to say it refers to believers regardless of which dispensation they lived.

Acts 20:28, "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.". All believers were bought with the blood of Christ.

1 Cor. 1:2, "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord". In point of fact the church of God is defined in this very verse. The church of God are all those who are sanctified, called to be holy and who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor. 10:32, "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God". The Greek word translated "nor" in the phrase, "nor the church of God" is "kai" and is often translated "even", as it should, in my opinion, be translated here. Paul's point is that nothing we do should be the cause of any believer to stumble. Here again, the phrawe "church of God is used to indicate all believers.

1 Cor. 11:22, "What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not.......?". The phrase "church of God" could refer to the local church at Corinth, but because of the way it is used I believe that Pau'ls point is not limited to the local church.

1 Cor. 15:9, ".....because I persecuted the church of God". We know that Paul persecuted all the believers he could find in various locations (see Acts 26:11), so the phrase cannot be taken here as a local church. It refers to all believers.

2 Cor. 1:1, "Paul.....unto the church of God which is at Corinth....". Here Paul is writing to believers of a specific location. But the very fact that he wrote, "the church of God which is at Corinth, tells us that the phrase "church of God" does not refer to a specific location. Here too, the phrase refers believers.

Gal. 1:13, ".....I persecuted the church of God". As mentioned above, Paul went to many cities to persecute believers. So here too the phrase "church of God" refers to believers and is not limited to believers of any particular location.

1 Tim. 3:5, "For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?". I believe that this is a general statement. That is to say it does not refer to a particular gathering, but refers to the fact that if any man cannot rule his own house, he cannot take care of any congregation of believers. Here too then, the phrase, "church of God" refers, in my opinion, to believers regardless of location. But there is one more very important lesson to be learned by the fact that the phrase "church of God" is used of believers in both the previous dispensation and the dispensation of the mystery. I believe that tells us that the phrase "church of God" refers to all believers regardless of location, and regardless of dispensation.

Love,
Madeline

[Jerry]

1 Cor. 10:32, "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God". The Greek word translated "nor" in the phrase, "nor the church of God" is "kai" and is often translated "even", as it should, in my opinion, be translated here. Paul's point is that nothing we do should be the cause of any believer to stumble. Here again, the phrawe "church of God is used to indicate all believers.

Let's not correct the Bible to make some point - if you have to do so, you are wrong. We are KJVonly on these boards, so obviously we are not going to agree that the KJV is wrong on this point. Paul is making a distinction between the three groups, not trying to imply they are all the same: the lost Jews (ie. the unsaved nation of Israel), the Gentiles (in the context, unsaved out of every other nation in the world), and the church (saved Jews and Gentiles in this church age).

1 Tim. 3:5, "For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?". I believe that this is a general statement. That is to say it does not refer to a particular gathering, but refers to the fact that if any man cannot rule his own house, he cannot take care of any congregation of believers. Here too then, the phrase, "church of God" refers, in my opinion, to believers regardless of location. But there is one more very important lesson to be learned by the fact that the phrase "church of God" is used of believers in both the previous dispensation and the dispensation of the mystery. I believe that tells us that the phrase "church of God" refers to all believers regardless of location, and regardless of dispensation.

The context of this verse indicates Paul is specifically referring to the pastor of a local church, not making some application to a "universal church." A pastor leads a local church, not a universal one.

One distinction we need to keep clear - the church is not Israel. In the OT, the people of God were the saved Jews, the wife of the Lord. In the NT, the people of God are the bride of Christ. In eternity I fully believe both people will be one (ie. OT saints and NT saints), but they are not right now and will not be so until at least after the rapture (whether we will be one starting in the Millenium or only in the new heavens and the new earth, I am not fully sure yet).

[kevinmiller]

Madeline wrote:
1 Cor. 10:32, "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God". The Greek word translated "nor" in the phrase, "nor the church of God" is "kai" and is often translated "even", as it should, in my opinion, be translated here. Paul's point is that nothing we do should be the cause of any believer to stumble. Here again, the phrawe "church of God is used to indicate all believers.

Jerry wrote:
Let's not correct the Bible to make some point - if you have to do so, you are wrong. We are KJVonly on these boards, so obviously we are not going to agree that the KJV is wrong on this point. Paul is making a distinction between the three groups, not trying to imply they are all the same: the lost Jews (ie. the unsaved nation of Israel), the Gentiles (in the context, unsaved out of every other nation in the world), and the church (saved Jews and Gentiles in this church age).

So you take one thing that Madeline wrote and used that as an excuse to throw out the whole passage. Whether it means "even" or "nor," the Bible still says the "church of God" as a whole, encompassing all believers, as it does throughout the New Testament.

The ability-to-pastor-a-church argument is getting old. There is a difference between the local church and the universal Church, but you keep ignoring it. The local church is the local gathering of believers who make up the universal Church. The Bible CLEARLY states that there is one Church of God and I have yet to see any verses that clearly state otherwise.

[Jerry]

Yeah, okay... :roll

I didn't throw out her whole argument - I made a clarification.

You will find your Universal Church doctrine is not a Baptist doctrine, so not everyone here is going to agree with you. I wasn't arguing one way or another in my post above, though, I was dealing with another issue entirely.

[kevinmiller]

So if the Baptist doctrine doesn't line up with Scripture, do you keep it or throw it out, or at least challenge it?

[Jerry]

I believe Baptist doctrine DOES line up with Scripture, which is why I became a Baptist. If there are doctrines that Baptists historically believe that doesn't line up with the Bible (and I am not referring to some so-called Baptist church today that has loosed its moorings), then I would need to find another denomination that does - though there are no others that line up with the Bible in all areas, such as what is referred to on these boards as the Baptist Distinctives. I am a Christian because I have been born again and uphold the fundamentals of the faith (can't be saved and reject them); however, I am a Baptist because in regards to the Distinctives (which I can clearly see taught in the Bible) and in other doctrinal areas, they are the only denomination throughout history that has embraced these others as well.

[kevinmiller]

Don't you think that it's impossible to find a denomination with which you can agree with each and every point of doctrine?

[Madeline]

One can take - and I believe Paul took - what he said in 1Cor.10:32 in both ways; on the second passage, I believe you are basically saying the same thing as me. The key point is that the "Church" of GOD is composed of all believers since Adam. The idea that it only started at Pentecost (or thereabouts) and/or that it only contains those saved since the resurrection of Jesus is one that has absolutely no biblical foundation. No passage teaches this, and attempting to apply such an idea to scripture has always led to many problems of misinterpretation across the board. That is not to say that it is not a popular idea - it is. It is just flat wrong and not supported by scripture. I think my point is made well enough, though unintentionally, by you and your concluding paragraph where you provide no scripture and resorts to a very confusing hodge-podge of non-biblical ideas to support the false premise of a distinction between Jews and gentiles in the Church of Christ. Jesus has made us all "one". How in the world would there be a distinction now but not in eternity? Especially since the Old Testament believers aren't here anymore anyway but are already in eternity? And of course those of the Church Age who have passed on are standing side by side with them in heaven in the presence of Jesus (with no distinction evident in the passages in Revelation which speak of them; etc.). To be fair, the idea of a distinction between "the Church" and believers before the cross came about as a result of attempts to construct a doctrinal system which would fully explain the significant differences in the way things work now as opposed to the way they worked in Israel and before. But these differences which are focused on the ministry of the Spirit on the one hand the cessation of God's witness being concentrated in a single geopolitical nation on the other are essentially all having to do with the way in which truth is disseminated (or "dispensed"). Taking the additional and unwarranted step of making false distinctions between the believers of these groups solely on the basis of the grace means given to grow spiritually is not supported by anything the Bible has to say. The means of disseminating truth are clearly different before and after the cross, but we are all one Body despite this (just as things were significantly different during the apostolic period before the completion of the scripture than they are now). For those who want to press this distinction, the disciples of Jesus pose an interesting problem, for they were saved during "Israel" but ministered during "the Church" - where would they belong, if there were a difference? The fact that there are only two phases in the resurrection of believers following Christ makes this point well: all from Adam to the last believer in the Tribulation are resurrected at the same time and are described in Rev.19:7 as "the Bride". Clearly, God is putting us together in one group, one "Body" as one "Bride" - and that is what we shall be for all eternity as we enjoy sweet fellowship together in the presence of our dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Hope this helps!

Love,
Madeline

[Jerry]

Don't you think that it's impossible to find a denomination with which you can agree with each and every point of doctrine?

God has promised to always have a remnant that was true to His Word and sold out to Him - so yes, it is our job to find out that church or denomination that does line up to God's Word in doctrine and practice (not one that fits our personal preferences).

[Jerry]

I did not make a distinction between Jews and Gentiles in the church. OT saints are not part of the church here on earth. Perhaps you could argue they now are part of that in Heaven - but the Scripture is silent on that. Whether the church started during Christ's ministry or at Pentecost - it started after the birth of Christ - that does not fit the nation of Israel. Yes, in this age, believing Jews and believing Gentiles are all one - and in eternity all believers, past, present, and future will all be one.

[kevinmiller]

God has promised to always have a remnant that was true to His Word and sold out to Him - so yes, it is our job to find out that church or denomination that does line up to God's Word in doctrine and practice (not one that fits our personal preferences).

The Bible doesn't say that the remnant will be right on every point of doctrine, nor does it even indicate to there being a denomination of any sort in the Bible. There are a lot of people who are true to His Word and sold out to Him who differ on doctrinal issues.

[Jerry]

God promises to reveal the truth to those who seek it - you do believe His Word, don't you? That means, there will be those who ARE right on doctrine.

And there were denominations in the Bible. Perhaps you need to read it again. Look for the word "sect". It means the same thing.

The Bible does not teach that anything goes in the way of doctrine. You are either right or wrong - and God's Word certainly doesn't teach that it doesn't matter.

[kevinmiller]

Denominations did not exist among true Christians in the Bible. And I didn't say that doctrine didn't matter, either.

[Madeline]

The Body of Christ is one Body regardless where individual Christians live or meet together. No Christian should be in a "sect".... in general, the definition of sect is that of a group of people who have a unique set of views, separate from others and are following some specific teaching of the "leader" Christians have the same world view (doctrine) regardless where they meet in the world. Merely because Christians meet in many places on earth, does not mean that these individual groups of Christians can be defined "sects".... (see 1 Cor.1:10). During the first century, for every group of Christians that met together for supportive work and teaching, there were different "servants" that would do designated specific work of the community at large. Neither Jesus nor Paul (or any other apostle) established a religious "authority" over all Christians everywhere in the world. Christians may name their local community by the title of Baptists, (in order that people will understand what they think about specific Bible teachings) that is merely the name of the specific doctrinal framework (how they think on specific issues) of that specific group of Christians. Christians have a right to worship and work with any Christian group that honors God. It is up to the Christian to make sure he/she is working with or worshipping with other Christians who respect the Bible. Certainly, titling a group of Christians doesn't prove they respect Bible truth in that local congregation. It seems that most groups who use the name Christian, believe they are the "closest" to biblical truths (some don?t appear to care if they are or not). Bible study will reveal which one is the "closest" (... is that like being a "little bit pregnant")?

Love,
Madeline