When Did the Church Begin

[JAHinton]

When did the church begin? There are two schools of thought on this one. One says during the ministry of Jesus while others say at Pentecost. I don?t wish to enter into this argument. My problem is Ac 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Many are opposed to any criticism of how a word in the KJV is translated. Without commenting on the translation of ekklesia. How do we reconcile Acts 7:38 with the above positions. ekklesia however can be translated assembly. Had it been there would be no seeming conflict.

I am solidly a KJV preacher and will preach and teach from nothing else.

[Jerry]

There is no contradiction and no difficulty with that verse. The word church means "called out assembly." Just like Israel in the wilderness was a called out assembly (called out of Egypt), so the NT church is a called out assembly. They are not the same assemblies, but both are called out - therefore both are referred to as churches.

The NT church was in existence during Christ's ministry, but empowered by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

[JAHinton]

Your're right. But some dont want to use anything other than the way it was translated. You translated it as called out assembly. That is exactly what it means. Both are indeed a called out assembly. And there is no contradiction.

[Jerry]

I trust every word in my King James Bible - but there is nothing wrong with defining the words, including using sound lexicons to do so.

P.S. John, just wanted to welcome you to these boards. I am sure you have a lot to add to the Biblical and Bible discussion threads.

[Calvary]

Defining a word and translating a word are not the same thing. The context of Acts 7 tells us that this is not a church in the NT understanding of the word church, however, it was an assembly, a word which the OT uses frequently in relation to the nation of Israel.

Ex. 12.6; 16.13; Nu. 8;9; Psalms 89.7...


The church in the wilderness is light years removed from the Church which is His body.

God bless,

Calvary

[Jerry]

That's what we've both been saying. Both Israel and NT believers are called out assemblies - though there are many differences between them.

[Maxmya]

I say that the beginning of the church was at Pentecost, even though it was a Jewish one at that time! But, still it began at Pentecost! The ultras will say it began at mid-Acts or Acts 19! But really, I am not going to belabor the point! It does not earn you rewards to argue about it, and it does not prevent one from being saved or living a separated life for the Lord!

[Guest Guest]

I would say that the church was not in existence during Christ's ministry; the embryo of it was the Apostles, so the first beginnings of the church were present. However, as Christ told Peter, "...and upon this rock I WILL BUILD my church." [Matthew 16:18] (emphasis added) The context is speaking of Christ (v. 16), not Peter, and the tense is future.

The next item of importance is the next verse: "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." The next major event is Pentecost, where Peter is preaching a rather peculiar message; this is still the "kingdom of heaven" Christ spoke of. However, I do believe that this called-out assembly in Acts 2 is the beginning of the Church; it changed quite a bit over the next 13 chapters or so, but this is most likely where it began.

[Jerry]

Jesus started building His church with His disciples during His public ministry, continued to build it at Pentecost - and is still building it today. So I am unsure how the future tense indicates Pentecost any more than it indicates ongoing activity.

[Guest Guest]

Jesus started building His church with His disciples during His public ministry' date=' continued to build it at Pentecost - and is still building it today. So I am unsure how the future tense indicates Pentecost any more than it indicates ongoing activity.[/quote']

Well, as Hebrews states, the New Testament can't begin without the death of the testator, so Christ's death (for the church) marked the starting point; whether it began exactly then or at Pentecost isn't really relevant. I don't agree that the church began later in Acts, though I do believe that several aspects of church doctrine changed drastically between Christ's ministry and Paul's ministry. (personal, dispensational beliefs; been there, done that elsewhere, let's not discuss it here)

[shiloh]

The NT church was in existence during Christ's ministry, but empowered by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.by Jerry

I agree, here is something to think about.
1. The church had a rule of discipline before Pentecost, Mt. 18:17
2. They had a business meeting before Pentecost and elected someone to take the place of Judas Acts 1:15-26
3. The church had it's commission to preach before Pentecost, Mt.28:18-20, Mk.16:15
4. The church had authority to baptize before Pentecost, Jn.4:2
5. The church had the Lords supper before Pentecost, Mt.26:30
6. During Pentecose there were about 3000 "additions".
These and many other reasons I believe the church was in existence before Pentecost.

[Pastorj]

I am in complete agreement with Jerry on this one, but this is not a topic that I would break fellowship over. I have pastor friends who hold to Pentecost and I simply reply, how can you add to something that doesn't exist. But they have good arguments for Pentecost.

[shiloh]

You know it's strange that pastorj would say this. I found it to be true also. Many men I know who hold to the idea the Church started with Christ before Pentecost will not break fellowship with those that disagree. However I found that many of the fellows on the other side of the issue will break fellowship with you in a NY second if you don't believe the church began at Pentecost.

[Madeline]

I agree that the future of "building the Church" is a continuing activity. Some of these responses confuses the particular administration God uses during this present era with what is Christ's assembly. While there are different means of "dispensation" of divine grace at different times in history, the Church is Body of Christ without distinction regardless of the way in which things are organized on earth or the way in which truth is dispensed. We are all one "Church" regardless of "testament", "covenant" or "dispensation", and the ROCK upon which this assembly or Church of all believers is built is Jesus Christ, and He has been that ROCK since Adam and Eve, since before time began. We all know by now that the word "Church" is actually our strange English translation for the Greek word ekklesia (from which we get "ecclesiastical" et al.); it means "assembly" and refers not to some new development in the plan of God but to the fulfillment of the Body of Christ in our present age; the Church per se includes all believers from Adam to the last person to believe at the end of the Tribulation just prior to Christ's return. The Church is the second phase of the resurrection (Christ being the first) and is Christ's bride at His return. Clearly, Abraham and Moses and David will be at the wedding supper - so how could they not be part of the Church? The false distinction between a "church" of gentiles and a company of Old Testament believers composed mostly of Jews is a misreading of everything the New Testament has to say, and can be a spiritually dangerous position, especially if it leads to a false sense of superiority by gentiles over Jews (cf. Rom.11). Consider just the following passage:

For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: Ephesians 2:14-16

:2cents

Love,
Madeline

[shiloh]

the Church is Body of Christ without distinction regardless of the way in which things are organized on earth or the way in which truth is dispensed. We are all one "Church" regardless of "testament", "covenant" or "dispensation", by Madeline

Madeline, I would like to see the Scripture you use for this. Thanks shiloh