Titus 2 v 11

[bob123]

I would be grateful if someone could clear up a point for me. In Titus 2 v 11 KJV we read "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men". In the French Loius Segond (which is the same text as the KJV) we read it the other way round viz. "For the grace of God, source of salvation for all men, has been manifested". As both are based on the same text yet teach slightly difference things I must confess to some confusion. Is anyone able to help?

Bob

[Jerry]

Actually, Louis Segond is not based on the TR, but on the Critical Text.

[Invicta]

I use the KJ AV and my wife uses the Louis Segond. She says it nearly always follows the KJ AV. It has the long ending of Mark without any footnotes

When in france, last summer, we went to the Bible Baptist Church in Laon. The Amerfican pastor said they use a bible based on Olivetan's original French translation. The pastor is editing the version, mainly by updating grammar and also adding accents which were not much used in those days.

[Calvary]

I would be grateful if someone could clear up a point for me. In Titus 2 v 11 KJV we read "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men". In the French Loius Segond (which is the same text as the KJV) we read it the other way round viz. "For the grace of God, source of salvation for all men, has been manifested". As both are based on the same text yet teach slightly difference things I must confess to some confusion. Is anyone able to help?

Bob

The truth is that a case could be made for either reading. When I say "reading" I mean that as a textual format. Both the KJB and the French LS are TR here. Neither one really contradicts the other. The grace of God which bringeth (i.e the source of our salvation the Lord Jesus Christ) hath appeared (has been manifested - made known unto - phaneroo is the greek word and can be translated either way.)

I don't see any slight difference of teaching with either of the readings. They both present the same concept. Language has a way of being transmitted in thoughts and not literal words, senses and tenses in place of an 100% equivalnet when passed from one idiom to another. Unfortunatley most would be KJB onlyists do not speak more than one language and therefore find themselves with a one dimensional view point insisting that a KJB equivalent must exist and therefore anything that is not word for word is in error. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Our KJB is not word for word TR (family). God has preserved the english speaking peoples a bible. Thank HIm for that. He has no doubt done so for other language groups as well.

As far as your French Bible, I would be more inclined to lean towards the Olivetan, as it finds its place in the Byzantine styled texts and therefore is more probably closer to what is familiar to us KJB onlyer's.

God bless,

Calvary

[Jerry]

The Louis Segond has some Critical Text readings. Perhaps we could compare it textually to the NKJV rather than the KJV - maybe not exactly an MV, but far enough from the KJV to cause concern. The French Olivetan and Martin Bibles are sound TR-based translations.

[Invicta]

The original LS edition of the New Testament was published in 1880 before the W&H text was published, I believe.

We also have ann English French parallel new testament, published by the N.Y. bible society. The French version is by J F Ostervald. The only difference between L.S. and J.F.O., in your quoted verse is instead of salut, it has salutaire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Frederic_Ostervald

http://bible.ostervald.ifrance.com/

This was the bible or the reformateurs, and can be downloaded for various mobile devices here:

http://www.olivetree.com/store/product. ... ctid=16814

I cannot find a windows version, although you can find the text here:

http://godieu.com/ostervald/bible/tite.html

[Jerry]

There are other Critical Texts besides Westcott and Hort's - such as the ones they used to make their texts from.

[Calvary]

A critical text is produced by any one from the school of thought that says the Bible mss. are to be treated like any other document, i.e. from a humanistic view point.

Critical texts existed in the form of Alexandrian mss long before W & H ever saw the light of day.

God bless,

Calvary

[Kubel]

1) For the grace of God, that bringeth salvation, hath appeared to all men.
2) For the grace of God, source of salvation for all men, has been manifested.

Even if we agree that source is equivalent to bringeth, and appeared is equivalent to manifested, there's a slight word order difference that carries a tiny bit of different meaning in English. If you break it down, the only difference is the position of "all men". One says the source of salvation appears to all men, the other says the God's grace appears to all men. But both suggest that salvation is of God's grace. So the difference is very minor (but still there!).

I know nothing of French, but it's possible that the word order difference has less of an impact in French than it does when we read the translation of the French in English. There's a lot that can happen when something gets translated twice. Of course, it could also be a goof. Those silly French. :hide