My definition of Calvinism

[Jerry]

For Whom Did Christ Die?

He died:

1. For all

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

2. For every man

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

3. For the world

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

4. For the sins of the whole world

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

5. For the ungodly

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

6. For false teachers

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

7. For many

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

8. For Israel

John 11:50-51 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

9. For the church

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

10. For me

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

[Danny Carlton]

The most common word translated ?chosen? in the Old Testament...

You're using OT scripture (and commentary) to define a New Testament word? Why avoid the NT?

[Danny Carlton]

For Whom Did Christ Die?

He died:

1. For all ...

No one is disputing that. What I am disputing is that Limited Atonement means, to many, that while it's intent may have been for all, it's effect isn't. Not everyone is saved, therefore contrary to what Universalists would want us to believe, everyone isn't saved, automatically, regardless of their beliefs.

[Danny Carlton]

One thing that strikes me the most about this debate is its similarity to a debate I'm told took place in the United Nations several decades ago.

An African nation was suffering famine, and many nations in the UN wanted to send food to help the starving people there. Great Britain moved to allocate funds to send a large amount of corn. The United States, disagreed, and argued that sending wheat would be more economical, efficient and provide better nutrition. The two nations argued back and forth for hours about the merits of their positions, and no one knows how long the debate would have continued had on aid not taken the parties aside and explained that what they call corn in Great Britian is exactly the same grain that they call wheat in the US. In Great Britain they call what we call corn, maize. They had both wanted the same thing, but only argued because neither realized that their terminology alone was creating the barrier.

It's way too easy to call peolpl names, and not stop to listen to what, specifically, they actually believe. Labels can be handy, but they become barriers when attached to the wrong things.

[JerryNumbers]

Amen Jerry.

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:15 (KJV)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16 (KJV)

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief
1 Tim 1:15 (KJV)

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 2:21 (KJV)

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10 (KJV)

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:13 (KJV)

16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
1 Tim 1:16 (KJV)

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 20:31 (KJV)

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:40 (KJV)

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:24 (KJV)

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1 Tim 2:4 (KJV)

32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Matt 10:32 (KJV)

8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Luke 12:8 (KJV)

No, the Bible does not contradict itself.

If the TULIP doctrine was true, them these very clear Bible verses that teach whosoever will would contradict the TULIP doctrine.

No ands, ifs or maybes, TULIP doctrine is false teaching, it is a very dangerous doctrine, anyone who pushers it is a false teacher.

[Philip]

Rather than get into an in-depth dissertation few would read beyond the first few lines anyway, I will simply state that a good part of what many profess as "Calvinism" today, is not anything like what Calvin actually believed and wrote about. I refer the reader to Calvin's "Institutes of Christian Religion", encouraging you to focus on the chapters dealing with the Gospel of John. You will find that Calvin was actually more of a universalist in re the atonement of Christ, rather than holding a strictly limited atonement point of view. And please, in the future, research for yourself and know your topic before you try and tear another point of view apart. Don't blindly trust what your pastor preaches about or what you read in journals and papers like SOTL. The scriptural method would be to take what you have heard and test it for yourself.

All that being said, I really do appreciate and enjoy the vast majority of posts here. Thanks and God bless you all.

[Philip]

Please don't infer from my previous post that I think your pastors are wrong, and that writings in the SOTL are false. Quite the contrary. In fact, I just renewed my subscription to the SOTL. Also, I have the highest regard for Shelton Smith, as he was a former pastor of my own. My only point with my last comments were to encourage us all to be diligent in searching the Word for ourselves, each of us.

[JerryNumbers]

I've subscribed to the Sword of the Lord for several years, I confess I like Curtis Hutson much better than Shelton Smith even though we carry the same last name.

I have read a few things that both Curtis Huston and John Rice have written on the Calvinist doctrine, seems they don't think to highly of it.

I'm looking at a small booklet by Curtis Hutson copyrighted in 1980 that is entitled, "Why I Disagree With All Five Points of Calvinist." I agree with him on this issue 100%. I disagree on all points of Calvinist Teachings. But I have posted my disagreement in other post already and plainly stated it is false teachings and it is not of the Bible nor of God.

I rightly don't know who your agreeing with or disagreeing with, but it seems your taking up for Calvin and his Calvinist doctrine which he is the inventor of, the reason he is the inventor of it is because it is not found in the Bible.

Oh, are you saying that Shelton Smith is a believer and teacher of Calvinist? That the Sword of the Lord upholds Calvinist?

[Alimantado]

No one is disputing that. What I am disputing is that Limited Atonement means' date=' to many, that while it's intent may have been for all, it's effect isn't. Not everyone is saved, therefore contrary to what Universalists would want us to believe, everyone isn't saved, automatically, regardless of their beliefs.[/quote']

But some people who are called Calvinist do dispute that. From the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith:

"By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice. ( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )"

There may be some who don't hold to all the traditional 'Calvinist' distinctives, or have redefined those distinctives so that they ...er.. are no longer distinctives, and still call themselves Calvinist. But others do fall under the traditional meaning of the term. I attended a church that held to the 1689 statements above.

Most of the people who have posted on here have detailed exactly what their problem with Calvinism is, so we are aware what brand of Calvinism they are referring to. Like you say, there is probably a spectrum of beliefs, so as long as one makes it clear which 'bit' of the spectrum is being criticised, what's the problem?

[John81]

This is one of the problems we have today with labels that are general in nature but actually cover a very broad spectrum.

Look at the label "Baptist" today: We have Baptist who call themselves Reformed Baptists and we have those who believe the Batist church can be traced back to the Apostles, there are Calvinist Baptist, Arminian Baptists, in-between Baptists, 'liberal Baptist, 'moderate' Baptists, 'conservative' Baptists, etc.

There are Baptists who believe playing cards is a sin and those who have no problem with card playing; the same goes for dancing, CCM, Southern Gospel, dress styles, hair styles, views on how husbands and wives are to conduct themselves, etc.

Most "Calvinists" I've actually encountered and read stuff buy probably fall into some sort of category that Spurgeon would be in. For the most part, what these people believe are in line with what many non-Calvinists I know believe and if were careful to state their beliefs without using some of the terms that have come to be associated with Calvinism so much, those non-Calvinists who heard them tell their beliefs would be nodding in agreement.

I've never personally encountered a "hyper-Calvinist", but I've read a bit of their stuff and the 'Calvinists' I've known and read from are in disagreement with the views of "hyper-Calvinists".

There is a writing somewhere on the web I found a year or so ago but have been unable to find since then which puts forth a side-by-side comparison of what Calvin actually taught, what some historical figures (like Spurgeon) taught, a couple of contemporary people and 'hyper-Calvinists" which clearly shows which are in agreement and which are well outside the bounds of the others. If anyone happens to know what this website is, or finds it, please post the link so I can save it this time.

[Madeline]

Amen Jerry.

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:15 (KJV)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16 (KJV)

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief
1 Tim 1:15 (KJV)

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 2:21 (KJV)

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10 (KJV)

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:13 (KJV)

16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
1 Tim 1:16 (KJV)

31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
John 20:31 (KJV)

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:40 (KJV)

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:24 (KJV)

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1 Tim 2:4 (KJV)

32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Matt 10:32 (KJV)

8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Luke 12:8 (KJV)

No, the Bible does not contradict itself.

If the TULIP doctrine was true, them these very clear Bible verses that teach whosoever will would contradict the TULIP doctrine.

No ands, ifs or maybes, TULIP doctrine is false teaching, it is a very dangerous doctrine, anyone who pushers it is a false teacher.

First, there are certain passages of Scripture I would ask you to read carefully and study - to see what they have to say on this. I could list many, but look at these: (Jn. 6, Jn. 10, Rom. 5, Rom. 9, and Eph. 1 and 2). What do these teach concerning "irresistible grace," "election," "reprobation?" First: the matter of irresistible grace is clearly taught in Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith: and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." What must be our conclusion on the basis of that quote? Secondly, consider the "free will." Some claim that a free will is one that can choose either good or evil. I ask: does God have a free will? We would, I assume, answer "Yes." Does that mean that God can either choose for Himself either good or evil? If the answer is yes, then God would not be God. Scripture declares that God is Light and in Him is no darkness at all. If He can choose evil, then there is darkness in God. The "free will" is a will that is fully able to choose the good. A will that can not choose the good is not a "free will" but one that is bound. Romans 5 emphasizes that in Adam we all died. One who is dead has lost the ability to choose the good or to choose God or Christ. Jesus taught in John 3:3, "Except a man be born again, he can not see the kingdom of God." That's true because he is dead in sin. He can not see those things which are spiritual. If he can not "see" the good, how can such a dead sinner "choose" the good? The dead in the grave may be offered bread to eat, but these can not choose to do so because of the very nature of death. So also it is true spiritually. Jesus teaches the only possibility of seeing in John 6:37 and 44,"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." And: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." That's not simply "Calvinism," that's Jesus' own instruction. And then there is the passage of Romans 9. Concering the verses you cited in an earlier post 11-13 (concerning Jacob and Esau - which would apply also to Ruth and Orphah), "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil,that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."Then the passage continues, "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteous with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth (free will???), nor of him that runneth (the works we do????), but of God that showeth mercy." The common objection is that this destroys man's free will; it is not man's fault if he is lost and if he is elect, he will be saved regardless. Look as vs. 19, "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?" And the answer: "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?" I already know that Calvinism debates will never get resolved on message boards (especially with those who have their minds already made up), so I'll just leave it at that. Have fun!

Love,
Madeline

[John81]

First, there are certain passages of Scripture I would ask you to read carefully and study - to see what they have to say on this. I could list many, but look at these: (Jn. 6, Jn. 10, Rom. 5, Rom. 9, and Eph. 1 and 2). What do these teach concerning "irresistible grace," "election," "reprobation?" First: the matter of irresistible grace is clearly taught in Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith: and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." What must be our conclusion on the basis of that quote? Secondly, consider the "free will." Some claim that a free will is one that can choose either good or evil. I ask: does God have a free will? We would, I assume, answer "Yes." Does that mean that God can either choose for Himself either good or evil? If the answer is yes, then God would not be God. Scripture declares that God is Light and in Him is no darkness at all. If He can choose evil, then there is darkness in God. The "free will" is a will that is fully able to choose the good. A will that can not choose the good is not a "free will" but one that is bound. Romans 5 emphasizes that in Adam we all died. One who is dead has lost the ability to choose the good or to choose God or Christ. Jesus taught in John 3:3, "Except a man be born again, he can not see the kingdom of God." That's true because he is dead in sin. He can not see those things which are spiritual. If he can not "see" the good, how can such a dead sinner "choose" the good? The dead in the grave may be offered bread to eat, but these can not choose to do so because of the very nature of death. So also it is true spiritually. Jesus teaches the only possibility of seeing in John 6:37 and 44,"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." And: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." That's not simply "Calvinism," that's Jesus' own instruction. And then there is the passage of Romans 9. Concering the verses you cited in an earlier post 11-13 (concerning Jacob and Esau - which would apply also to Ruth and Orphah), "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil,that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."Then the passage continues, "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteous with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth (free will???), nor of him that runneth (the works we do????), but of God that showeth mercy." The common objection is that this destroys man's free will; it is not man's fault if he is lost and if he is elect, he will be saved regardless. Look as vs. 19, "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?" And the answer: "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?" I already know that Calvinism debates will never get resolved on message boards (especially with those who have their minds already made up), so I'll just leave it at that. Have fun!

Love,
Madeline

:goodpost:

[JerryNumbers]

John, so you believe that irresistible grace is taught in the Bible, that those who are called are offered irresistible grace from God which completely takes away their free will?

No, there is no such thing as irresistible grace taught in the Bible, and Ephesians 2:8-9 does not teach irresistible grace and neither does Romans 10:9.

[Jerry]

First: the matter of irresistible grace is clearly taught in Eph. 2:8-9' date=' "For by grace are ye saved through faith: and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." What must be our conclusion on the basis of that quote?[/quote']

:puzzled: Yowza - do you even KNOW what you are talking about? The passage says salation is by grace - it does not say man has no choice in the matter (which is what irresistable grace is referring to).

Your second point is so mixed up, I am not even going to try to reply to it.

[Bakershalfdozen]

First, there are certain passages of Scripture I would ask you to read carefully and study - to see what they have to say on this. I could list many, but look at these: (Jn. 6, Jn. 10, Rom. 5, Rom. 9, and Eph. 1 and 2). What do these teach concerning "irresistible grace," "election," "reprobation?" First: the matter of irresistible grace is clearly taught in Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith: and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." What must be our conclusion on the basis of that quote? Secondly, consider the "free will." Some claim that a free will is one that can choose either good or evil. I ask: does God have a free will? We would, I assume, answer "Yes." Does that mean that God can either choose for Himself either good or evil? If the answer is yes, then God would not be God. Scripture declares that God is Light and in Him is no darkness at all. If He can choose evil, then there is darkness in God. The "free will" is a will that is fully able to choose the good. A will that can not choose the good is not a "free will" but one that is bound. Romans 5 emphasizes that in Adam we all died. One who is dead has lost the ability to choose the good or to choose God or Christ. Jesus taught in John 3:3, "Except a man be born again, he can not see the kingdom of God." That's true because he is dead in sin. He can not see those things which are spiritual. If he can not "see" the good, how can such a dead sinner "choose" the good? The dead in the grave may be offered bread to eat, but these can not choose to do so because of the very nature of death. So also it is true spiritually. Jesus teaches the only possibility of seeing in John 6:37 and 44,"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." And: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." That's not simply "Calvinism," that's Jesus' own instruction. And then there is the passage of Romans 9. Concering the verses you cited in an earlier post 11-13 (concerning Jacob and Esau - which would apply also to Ruth and Orphah), "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil,that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."Then the passage continues, "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteous with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth (free will???), nor of him that runneth (the works we do????), but of God that showeth mercy." The common objection is that this destroys man's free will; it is not man's fault if he is lost and if he is elect, he will be saved regardless. Look as vs. 19, "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?" And the answer: "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?" I already know that Calvinism debates will never get resolved on message boards (especially with those who have their minds already made up), so I'll just leave it at that. Have fun!

Love,
Madeline

And yet, all means all.

When the Bible says whosoever will, I believe it. And when it says chosen from the foundation of the world, I believe that too. They really do work together. :smile


[offtopic]Could you please start making use of paragraphs when you make lonnnnnng posts? :pray They would be so much easier to read.[/offtopic]