Hating the Sinner, revisited

[heartstrings]

I keep seeing calvinists, in my Facebook feed, pushing the idea that "God hates the sinner".  So I would put forth another example of God LOVING the sinner. Would you agree that the "rich young ruler" went away lost? If so, then we could agree that he was still a sinner because, of course, not one person who ever lived has kept "all the commandments" except the Lord Jesus. So here we see, in Mark chapter 10, God loving a lost sinner, just as lost as any other sinner. It's as plain as day.

 

Mark 10 

17And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? 18And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. 19Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. 20And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. 21Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. 22And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions. 23And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 24And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 26And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? 27And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

 

[Joe Chandler]

Here is my personal problem. I know that God loves the sinner. He loves me and he loved me when I was a sinner.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Having said that I am having a hard time loving some of the sinners I meet. Example: I was listening to Unshackled on the radio one day. The story was about a guy who wasted all his money on alcohol and as a result his wife and daughter froze to death because they were evicted from their home. Later this guy gets saved. I hated that guy and was not happy. 

Now I pivot to Saul (later to become Paul) He was the worst of the worst. He persecuted the church, consented to the stoning of Stephen, and sent Christians to jail. He was everything I hate in a man. Then he got saved and became one of my heroes. So my flesh constantly fights to reconcile my anger and my knowledge that Christ loves us all.

[heartstrings]

40 minutes ago, Joe Chandler said:

Here is my personal problem. I know that God loves the sinner. He loves me and he loved me when I was a sinner.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Having said that I am having a hard time loving some of the sinners I meet. Example: I was listening to Unshackled on the radio one day. The story was about a guy who wasted all his money on alcohol and as a result his wife and daughter froze to death because they were evicted from their home. Later this guy gets saved. I hated that guy and was not happy. 

Now I pivot to Saul (later to become Paul) He was the worst of the worst. He persecuted the church, consented to the stoning of Stephen, and sent Christians to jail. He was everything I hate in a man. Then he got saved and became one of my heroes. So my flesh constantly fights to reconcile my anger and my knowledge that Christ loves us all.

I cannot say what attitude I would have if someone did something such as hurt one of my family. It would be difficult to be Christlike for sure and I hope I never have to find out. But then, we are not Christ either. He does tell us to "love our enemies" so that we will "be like our Father". Again, that also confirms to me that God loves sinners, which are, in effect, His enemies.

[Joe Chandler]

6 hours ago, heartstrings said:

I cannot say what attitude I would have if someone did something such as hurt one of my family. It would be difficult to be Christlike for sure and I hope I never have to find out. But then, we are not Christ either. He does tell us to "love our enemies" so that we will "be like our Father". Again, that also confirms to me that God loves sinners, which are, in effect, His enemies.

Well said. Maybe that's why Jesus said, John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

[TheGloryLand]

I believe if you are with your family and you are caught in the middle of a fire fight. Someone trying to hurt your daughter, it’s OK to use whatever you have to terminate that person. Now, if you’re not there, it’s not OK for you to come back two days later, and terminate that person. At first, and action taken you’re not a sinner for defending yourself and family. But two days later, taking action on your own, now you’re a sinner. I hope this helps.

[SureWord]

The problem is "hate the sin but love the sinner" has turned into "let them get away with murder" and "never judge their sins".

Also, how can God love sinners yet call them children of the devil who are under his wrath at the same time? 

I heard one preacher posit that God's love for the sinner is all poured into the cross and that's where they find it. Outside of that he hates the sinner. Therefore, until the sinner comes to the cross God hates them.

The tolerance and acceptance of wicked men in the name of love is why I believe many have tired of that phrase.

[heartstrings]

The problem is "truth" with no "spirit" and "spirit" with no "truth". When the Holy Spirit deals with a person's heart, He  deals with their sin, God's righteousness, and their judgement. In other words, you're a wicked sinner, on your way to Hell, and you deserve it, But God is holy and righteous and, having the highest, most unfathomable love that exists, God loves you and does not want you to go to Hell. But by feeding people a steady diet of "God hates you" without showing that He LOVES you and that he demonstrated that love by sending His only begotten son to die for you, you are putting out what you claim is "truth". But "truth" without "spirit"(including the love of God) is not truth at all. Neither is teaching "love" without telling people they are rotten sinners deserving of Hell. You have to proclaim the whole message; sin, righteousness and judgment or your "gospel" becomes "another gospel".

In short, while you're still breathing, there is hope because of God's grace. God commands us to even "love your enemies" so that we can "be like Him". That's a tall order. And God would not tell you to do something which is more noble and righteous than He would do Himself.

[Joe Chandler]

On 8/17/2023 at 8:50 PM, TheGloryLand said:

I believe if you are with your family and you are caught in the middle of a fire fight. Someone trying to hurt your daughter, it’s OK to use whatever you have to terminate that person. Now, if you’re not there, it’s not OK for you to come back two days later, and terminate that person. At first, and action taken you’re not a sinner for defending yourself and family. But two days later, taking action on your own, now you’re a sinner. I hope this helps.

Estoy de acuerdo con todo lo que dijiste como cuestión de derecho, pero no has entendido el punto del hilo. ¿Cómo amamos al pecador y odiamos el pecado?

[TheGloryLand]

1 hour ago, Joe Chandler said:

Estoy de acuerdo con todo lo que dijiste como cuestión de derecho, pero no has entendido el punto del hilo. ¿Cómo amamos al pecador y odiamos el pecado?

Amamos el pecador porque está hecho en el imagen de Jesucristo, odiamos el pecado que sales de nosotros, porque somos pecadores.

[Joe Chandler]

On 8/20/2023 at 2:18 AM, SureWord said:

The problem is "hate the sin but love the sinner" has turned into "let them get away with murder" and "never judge their sins".

Also, how can God love sinners yet call them children of the devil who are under his wrath at the same time? 

I heard one preacher posit that God's love for the sinner is all poured into the cross and that's where they find it. Outside of that he hates the sinner. Therefore, until the sinner comes to the cross God hates them.

The tolerance and acceptance of wicked men in the name of love is why I believe many have tired of that phrase.

I have given this thread in general and your post in particular a great deal of thought. How can we reconcile the love and hatred of God. The answer is in Christ. 

Colossians 2:8-9 …   after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

If 1 John 4:8 is true, then God’s acts of judgment are also acts of His love.

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

In the life and sacrifice of Jesus, I see the love of God.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.  

In the humiliation and crucifixion of Christ, I see the severity of God’s justice.  Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 

And in the resurrection of Christ, I see hope and love.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

[Joe Chandler]

One additional thought about love and hate. Perhaps we do not understand love and hate the way God expresses it in His Word.

Luke 14:25-26 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, 26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

[TheGloryLand]

19 minutes ago, Joe Chandler said:

One additional thought about love and hate. Perhaps we do not understand love and hate the way God expresses it in His Word.

Luke 14:25-26 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, 26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

I believe hate here means, for sake.

[robmac68]

On 8/24/2023 at 11:58 AM, heartstrings said:

by feeding people a steady diet of "God hates you" without showing that He LOVES you and that he demonstrated that love by sending His only begotten son to die for you, you are putting out what you claim is "truth". But "truth" without "spirit"(including the love of God) is not truth at all

I don't believe we should feed them a diet that God hates them.  That probably does not need to come up.  But by feeding them the lie that God actively "loves them", they get confused on how a God that loves them can send them to hell for eternity.  In this case, telling them God loves them would be doing more harm then telling them He doesn't love them. 

The Bible is very clear, "...thou hatest all workers of iniquity." Psalm 5:5  A worker is a person not their actions or "sin".

God HAS love for all lost sinners, but doesn't actively love them.  In order for them to get God's love, they have to go through Jesus.  "...shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 8:39  God has all this love to give, but you have to go through a door to get it.  That door is Jesus.  And anybody can go through that door.  "...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

There isn't a verse in the Bible that states God loves the lost person, just that He has love for them.  John 3:16, past tense.  

[Jerry]

God does love the lost - present tense, not just past. He doesn’t love their sin or love them IN their sin - He provided the way to wipe out and remove their sins.

Romans 5:6-8
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

References to God hating the lost and wicked is hating their works - AND you will see by comparing passages, He hates those who refuse to repent and receive His salvation, those who actively reject His Word and strive against His people. The Bible does not teach a generic hatred for the lost until they get saved.

In fact, it is God’s love for the lost, in many instances, that cause them to come to come to Him for salvation.

Mark 10:21-22
Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

1 John 4:10
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

1 John 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.

Also, how can God only love us in the past - loved? The NT was written over 1900 years ago. He loved me back then before I was ever born, before I was ever presented with the Gospel, before I had ever responded to Him positively or negatively. All my sins were still future.

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

1 Peter 1:19-20
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Romans 8:29-30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Yes, He loved mankind from all eternity, planned our salvation out before even creating this world and the people in it, knew from eternity who would receive Him and who would reject Him, and still chose to die for us. Yes, He says He never KNEW those workers of iniquity who never repented or trusted Him for salvation - those are the wicked He says He hates (and they hate and reject Him), not just lost mankind in general.

[robmac68]

I loved the NFL and more so the Steelers.  But in the past decade or two, they have seriously gotten way too political for my liking.  In fact, there are some things I actually hate about the NFL.  Do I hate the teams and the players? No.  There are so many things I hate about Roger Goodell but I don't believe I actually hate him.  Although, after reading some news articles in the past, my dislike for the man was very high.  Would I like to love the NFL again?  Sure.  But they would have to change quite a few things and turn from their evil (political) ways for me to love them again.  I would say, for the ,most part, I am indifferent to them.  A few I strongly dislike.  

"For God so loved the world..."  Past tense.  If we understand some of the Holiness of God, how can we say a Holy God loves this world now?  John 12:31 and Ephesians 2:2 talk of satan being the prince of this world and the air.  Does a Holy God love that?  No.  

I do believe God is sort of "indifferent" to the lost sinner that is going through this life, trying to be good, but doesn't even know God or His Son's name.  Example would be the native Americans.  They believed in a spirit in the sky and tried to take care of their families and the land.  Would they be "workers of iniquity"? I don't believe so.

Gay couple living next door to you, not hating you because they see you going to church.  Just going through this life the best way they think they can.  Keeping to themselves.  Not adopting.  Not going to parades or protests.  Just living life. = lost sinner?

Gay activist trying to push their agenda and get sex ed for kindergartners.  Actively protesting and hating all things to do with religion. = "worker of iniquity"? 

I definitely believe God hates some people on this earth because we are told this in Psalm 5:5.  This is a fact that so many Christians would argue with.  I have experience with this because a deacon got in a shouting match with me during one of my sermons on this and stated that God can't hate because God can't sin and all hate is sin.  Our hate comes from pride, God's does not, but this deacon could not separate the two.

God has love to give all, but we have to go through His son to get it.  Telling a lost person that God hates them would be wrong to do.  Telling them that God has so much love to give us that He gave His only begotten Son to die on a cross so that we might be saved would be a better point to make.