Saddleback Church kicked out of the Southern Baptist Convention

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

1 hour ago, TheGloryLand said:

Matt.7

[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
[24] Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
[25] And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
[26] And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
 

 

Rock or Sand, it is very hard, not impossible for a very rich man or woman to make it to heaven. Sell all what you have, and give it away, and follow Me. Many will bow their heads and walk away, for they had much. The Blind, following the Blind.
 

We Choose my friends…

I have chosen to live by all Jesus's sayings and every word of God.

"Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me" (Luke 18:22).

Here, Jesus tests a particular man who said he kept the commands that Jesus listed. Notably, Jesus hadn't mentioned the one about coveting. Jesus homed in on his wealth, commanding him to sell all he had and give the proceeds to the poor, and to follow Him. The rich man was unable to obey Jesus because he coveted his many possessions above God. For, "when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich" (v. 23).

The command Jesus gave to this rich man to sell all he had is not universal, though we should be able to obey it at a moments notice. Naturally speaking, one can understand that it is much harder for rich people for we must forsake all to follow Jesus. Sadly, this man couldn't.

Note that obeying the law doesn't procure eternal life. It only shows our need for a Saviour. Believing in Jesus does.

The passage continues,

"And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved? And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God" (v. 24-27).

The final verse indicates that God is able to get rich people into heaven.

Many wealthy people have come to faith. Abraham was rich, Job was wealthy, and God made Solomon rich. The New Testament describes Cornelius, the Centurion (Acts 10), Joseph, called Barnabas (Acts 4), Lydia (Acts 16), and Philemon (Phm. 1) as people who were well off.

Sometimes covetousness leads poor people astray too. Both rich and poor need to recognise that true riches are in following Christ, and not in mammon.

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

36 minutes ago, TheGloryLand said:

Here are some more…

Mar 10, 2023 — Joel Osteen's net worth is estimated to be around $110 million. Joel is an American televangelist, author, and well-known pastor. His sermon has ...
Net Worth: $110 Million
Monthly Income: $0.7Million +
Date of Birth: March 5, 1963
Salary: $10 Million +

Pastor Joyce Meyer net worth: Pastor Joyce Meyer is an American bible teacher, author, and motivational speaker who has a net worth of $8 million dollars.

T. D. Jakes is an American non-denominational Christian preacher who has a Net Worth of around $30 Million.

Creflo Dollar is estimated to have a net worth of $27 million, most of which came from his ministerial establishments around the United States.
Source of Wealth: Preaching

Kenneth Copeland

Dec 15, 2021 — He has built a massive net worth of $760 million, according to a 2018 list of the country's richest pastors by Beliefnet. His three-story, ...

Amazing, and sad my friends. Much of their members are senior citizens, that are just barely making it, with their Social Security income.

Not all mega church pastors are the same. You might want to read the article, Rick Warren: The Purpose-Driven Pastor. Here's an extract:

Warren became a household name, and his book became the biggest blockbuster in American publishing history. Even though he began to "reverse tithe" — that is, to give away 90 percent of his income — he was still earning millions in royalties. More than that, he had cultural influence approaching that of the Rev. Billy Graham. But this success prompted him to do some soul searching. Warren realized that the American evangelicalism he had pioneered catered to the needs of the rich while ignoring the poor.

"I had to repent," he told a group of religion writers in 2005. "I had to say 'God, I'm sorry, I can't think of the last time I thought of widows and orphans.' "

Warren began spending much of his time in Africa, making AIDS, poverty and illiteracy his top priorities, and trying to shift evangelicals in a new direction — as he put it, "from self-centeredness to unselfishness."

[TheGloryLand]

The rich preacher, and a rich drug dealer, have very in common is, they cannot hide the way they spend their money, with their lifestyles. If you see a preacher, preaching with four golden diamond rings , buy him one more, for Christmas, he deserves it. 

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by TheGloryLand

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

48 minutes ago, TheGloryLand said:

The rich preacher, and a rich drug dealer, have very in common is, they cannot hide the way they spend their money, with their lifestyles. If you see a preacher, preaching with four golden diamond rings , buy him one more, for Christmas, he deserves it. 

 

I thought we were talking about Rick Warren. That's who you asked me about. 

Edited April 25, 2023 by Dr. Robert S. Morley
Added last sentence

[BrotherTony]

7 hours ago, TheGloryLand said:

Matt.7

[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
[24] Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
[25] And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
[26] And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
 

 

Rock or Sand, it is very hard, not impossible for a very rich man or woman to make it to heaven. Sell all what you have, and give it away, and follow Me. Many will bow their heads and walk away, for they had much. The Blind, following the Blind.
 

We Choose my friends…

You are misapplying scripture to meet your own ideology, TGL. Content and context. I don't doubt Warren's salvation. I do doubt the direction he's leading other people in. Concerning wealth...many of these pastors and leaders have started out poor and had to live and invest wisely, honing the gifts that God gave them. There's nothing wrong with wealth. There is however something wrong with the LOVE of the money earned.

[TheGloryLand]

1 hour ago, BrotherTony said:

You are misapplying scripture to meet your own ideology, TGL. Content and context. I don't doubt Warren's salvation. I do doubt the direction he's leading other people in. Concerning wealth...many of these pastors and leaders have started out poor and had to live and invest wisely, honing the gifts that God gave them. There's nothing wrong with wealth. There is however something wrong with the LOVE of the money earned.

I agree with you, but somebody have to draw the red line, if the deacons are not. These preachers, that make more money than the President of the United States, make me scratch my head. Not the preacher, but the members that keep feeding them.

[TheGloryLand]

3 hours ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

I thought we were talking about Rick Warren. That's who you asked me about. 

True, I haven’t seen how many gold diamond rings that he wears, at one time. Check him out the next time you watch him, let me know.

[TheGloryLand]

5 minutes ago, TheGloryLand said:

True, I haven’t seen how many gold diamond rings that he wears, at one time. Check him out the next time you watch him, let me know.

 I did a little Google hunting myself.

Just now, TheGloryLand said:

 I did a little Google hunting myself.

Some of you here, think I just make things up, out of thin air. But that’s OK.

[BrotherTony]

1 hour ago, TheGloryLand said:

I agree with you, but somebody have to draw the red line, if the deacons are not. These preachers, that make more money than the President of the United States, make me scratch my head. Not the preacher, but the members that keep feeding them.

That's between them, their pastor, and God... It has nothing to do with you or me. Once again, you're worrying about things that don't concern you, and it's not about drawing any "red lines." 

52 minutes ago, TheGloryLand said:

 I did a little Google hunting myself.

Some of you here, think I just make things up, out of thin air. But that’s OK.

Again, does how many diamond or gold rings he wears affect your salvation or mine? No, it doesn't. This sounds more like jealousy to me.

[TheGloryLand]

23 hours ago, TheGloryLand said:

 I did a little Google hunting myself.

Some of you here, think I just make things up, out of thin air. But that’s OK.

Dr. You didn’t tell me,if you like your buddies rings.  

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

SBC Stand is a site that responds to this issue. Here's an excerpt:

About SBC Stand

Currently, the concerns about women serving as pastors is a subject of intensive debate within the Southern Baptist Convention(SBC).  As followers of Christ, we’re never going to achieve unity on doctrine, but we can achieve unity on mission.‍

 

Great Commission Baptists believe Jesus authorized every woman to go, to make disciples, to baptize and to teach — just as He authorized everyman. We cannot finish the task Jesus gave us with 50% of the Church forced to sit on the bench.  There are four verbs in the Great Commission: Go, make disciples, baptize and teach, which apply to every follower of Jesus, including women – not just men. Women are to go. Women are to make disciples. Women are to baptize. And women are also to teach.  As we obediently work to make the name of Jesus known throughout the world, it’s imperative that we’re prepared to collaborate in new ways and work together towards broader cooperative goals in Bible translation and engagement; evangelization and witness empowerment; and church planting. 

Edited May 31, 2023 by Dr. Robert S. Morley

[BrotherTony]

3 hours ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

SBC Stand is a site that responds to this issue. Here's an excerpt:

About SBC Stand

Currently, the concerns about women serving as pastors is a subject of intensive debate within the Southern Baptist Convention(SBC).  As followers of Christ, we’re never going to achieve unity on doctrine, but we can achieve unity on mission.‍

 

Great Commission Baptists believe Jesus authorized every woman to go, to make disciples, to baptize and to teach — just as He authorized everyman. We cannot finish the task Jesus gave us with 50% of the Church forced to sit on the bench.  There are four verbs in the Great Commission: Go, make disciples, baptize and teach, which apply to every follower of Jesus, including women – not just men. Women are to go. Women are to make disciples. Women are to baptize. And women are also to teach.  As we obediently work to make the name of Jesus known throughout the world, it’s imperative that we’re prepared to collaborate in new ways and work together towards broader cooperative goals in Bible translation and engagement; evangelization and witness empowerment; and church planting. 

Women are to go, YES. But the Bible is clear on the qualifications for a pastor. This isn't disqualifying them for anything but what the Word has set forth. 

[Jim_Alaska]

1 Timothy 2:11-13 (KJV) Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

No woman can qualify as a Pastor according to Scripture.

1 Timothy 3:1-7 (KJV) This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

[SureWord]

Interestingly, the 12 apostles were all men. 

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

13 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

1 Timothy 2:11-13 (KJV) Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

Hi Jim,

Many interpret 1 Timothy 2:11-13 and 1 Timothy 3:1-7 differently.

Concerning 1 Timothy 2:11-13:

At the beginning of the letter, Paul says that he had requested Timothy “to abide still at Ephesus . . . that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine” (1 Timothy 1:3). In 1 Timothy 2:11-15, Paul addresses one of these different doctrines, the idea of female religious superiority. It was the prevalent belief in Ephesian religion that man came from a woman deity and subsequently sinned. Consequently, men were to be subject to women teaching them. This idea had apparently infiltrated into the local church.

Paul’s instruction corrects this. He tells Timothy, “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection” (1 Tim. 2:11). This correction, describes the proper demeanor in which both men and women should learn. Except, in this case, it was evidently the women who needed it.

“Let the woman learn” was huge progress in that women were often uneducated and relegated to the sidelines of life, including among the Jews. “[I]n silence” suggests an environment conducive to learning. And, “with all subjection” is a call to appropriate Christian behavior. This is not unlike Ephesians 5:21, “Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.”

“I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man.” Here Paul is addressing the cult religion in Ephesus that taught women were the source of truth. (See 1 Timothy 2: Why Does Paul Tell Women To Shut It?). Prohibiting the exercise of authority over one another is not foreign to Christianity. Consider Jesus’ prohibition on disciples having authority over one another in Matthew 20:25-27.

“but to be in silence” suggests an attitude toward learning. It is not a strict prohibition from any interaction. Acts 2:17-18 says, “And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.” Silence would prohibit women from participating in Paul’s instruction in Colossians 3:16, “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.” See also Ephesians 5:19, “Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord.”

Paul goes on, “For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” (1 Tim. 2:13). Paul corrects a false teaching that man came from a woman deity by stating that Adam was formed first and then Eve. He doesn’t do this in order to place Adam over Eve but to rectify the false teaching. He continues to dismantle the false teaching, saying that “the woman being deceived was in the transgression.”

Paul was not prohibiting women from teaching men or from speaking God’s word with authority. He was simply bringing wayward thinking in line with the equality that should exist in the body of Christ.

13 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

1 Timothy 3:1-7 (KJV) This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Concerning 1 Tim. 3:1-7:

It seems that Paul prohibits women from eldership in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 (and Titus 1:5-9), which refers to the need for “bishops” (also called “elders” in Titus) to be “the husband of one wife.” However, one would have to prohibit single men and widowers too, for they are not “the husband of one wife” either.

Furthermore, gender neutrality is evident in 1 Timothy 3:1. It reads, “This is a true saying, If a man (Gk. tis – anyone) desire the office of a bishop, he (not in Gk.) desireth a good work.” The translation of “man” is not incorrect if understood in the way it is used in Genesis 1:27, “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”

In describing the requirements for elders (and deacons), Paul focuses on the typical candidate of his time, a spiritually sound and experienced married man with children. “A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity” (1 Tim. 3:2-4). Though he does not mention single men, widowers, childless married men, or women, he is in no way excluding them.

Paul returns to gender neutrality in 1 Timothy 3:5.  “For if a man (Gk. tis –anyone) know not how to rule his (not in Gk.) own house, how shall he (not in Gk.) take care of the church of God?” (1 Tim. 3:5).

Such an interpretation is in keeping with our redemption. In Christ, we are restored to the equality seen at creation (Gen. 1:28) because the curse, “he shall rule over thee,” that came at the Fall (Gen. 3:16) is ended at the cross. For, in Christ, there is “neither male nor female” (Gal. 3:28).

Even if Paul had males in mind for elders when writing to Timothy, we need to keep in mind that he was not writing a manual, but a letter for an occasion. Paul was likely being descriptive of elders and deacons as males, for this was where the church was generally at socially, but this was not necessarily prescriptive for the entire church age. For Paul also wrote concerning slaves and slave owners, and yet we do not take what he wrote as an endorsement of slavery.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Dr. Robert S. Morley
I changed words I put in capital letters for emphasis back to their original form.