The Wilds?

[Pastorj]

When this process was going on, the Wilds and PCC broke fellowship because the Wilds refused to stop recruiting at BJU.

As to the history of the fight between PCC and BJU

1. PCC produced Video 1 - 2 Chapel messages to help pastors teach their people why the KJV is the preserved Word of God
2. BJU responded and said that the video was not scholarly
3. PCC produced Video 2 - A Scholarly attempt to prove the preservation of the KJV.
4. BJU responded again stating that PCC's position of the KJV being the only preserved English translation was flawed.
5. PCC (Dr. Johnson) began researching the History of BJU and it's impact on fundamentalism. What Dr. Johnson found was that colleges, churches, camps and even groups like the GARBC were being led by BJU grads when they left the KJV and moved to other versions of Scripture. They also found that BJU had left the KJV and it's corresponding greek/hebrew texts and had moved to the critical Greek Text (wescott/Hort) in their seminary. Hence the 3rd video.
6. BJU responded with the letter you posted along with a video refuting PCC's claim. The video was entitled something like "Coalition Response". It was published by BJ and inluded liberal seminaries such as Calvary Theological in PA.
7. PCC concluded the fight with it's final video - A response to the Coalition.

During this time PCC made a decision that churches, colleges, camps and any other group that alligned itself with BJU, was part of the BJU Network. Since the Wilds recruits at BJU and associates with them and their students are being poisened by Calvinism and the perversion of Scripture, PCC broke fellowship.

Now, I don't necessarily agree with PCC's position on Separation, but I do have concerns that the majority of the counselors come from a School which does not hold to the KJV and has Calvinists on staff.

[John81]

When this process was going on, the Wilds and PCC broke fellowship because the Wilds refused to stop recruiting at BJU.

As to the history of the fight between PCC and BJU

1. PCC produced Video 1 - 2 Chapel messages to help pastors teach their people why the KJV is the preserved Word of God
2. BJU responded and said that the video was not scholarly
3. PCC produced Video 2 - A Scholarly attempt to prove the preservation of the KJV.
4. BJU responded again stating that PCC's position of the KJV being the only preserved English translation was flawed.
5. PCC (Dr. Johnson) began researching the History of BJU and it's impact on fundamentalism. What Dr. Johnson found was that colleges, churches, camps and even groups like the GARBC were being led by BJU grads when they left the KJV and moved to other versions of Scripture. They also found that BJU had left the KJV and it's corresponding greek/hebrew texts and had moved to the critical Greek Text (wescott/Hort) in their seminary. Hence the 3rd video.
6. BJU responded with the letter you posted along with a video refuting PCC's claim. The video was entitled something like "Coalition Response". It was published by BJ and inluded liberal seminaries such as Calvary Theological in PA.
7. PCC concluded the fight with it's final video - A response to the Coalition.

During this time PCC made a decision that churches, colleges, camps and any other group that alligned itself with BJU, was part of the BJU Network. Since the Wilds recruits at BJU and associates with them and their students are being poisened by Calvinism and the perversion of Scripture, PCC broke fellowship.

Now, I don't necessarily agree with PCC's position on Separation, but I do have concerns that the majority of the counselors come from a School which does not hold to the KJV and has Calvinists on staff.

Thank you! I was not aware of all of this.

[Annie]

When this process was going on' date=' the Wilds and PCC broke fellowship because the Wilds refused to stop recruiting at BJU.[/quote']This is truly puzzling to me... It appears to me that The Wilds didn't--and doesn't--make an issue of the whole deal...I think this is demonstrated in the fact that the camp is enjoyed by both KJVO and nonKJVO churches (as well as the fact that the VP of West Coast -John Goetsch ? speaks there most summers). If anything, they're on the conservative side of the issue, since they use only the KJV. It looks like PCC did the breaking, effectively backing TW into a corner by forcing the camp to make a yea/nay decision on something that had,to that point, been a non-issue (and still was a non-issue to TW). It's too bad, really, when these things happen in the body of Christ.



I think I'm with you there.



Interesting...and very, very sad. Do you have documentation of this process? I am amazed that a Christian institution would, bulldog-like, latch on to another Christian institution like this and, instead of biblically confronting that other institution privately in a spirit of meekness, address the issue as PCC did, forcing BJU to publicly defend itself against accusations of not being true to God's Word. I wonder what the point of it all was...?



This is even more astonishing! I wonder how this kind of behavior can be scriptural. IMO, it goes far beyond biblical separation into something that resembles a schoolyard squabble: "Since you're on speaking terms with the one I don't like (read: agree with 100% on a few pet issues), I don't like you either." Whew! So much for unity and brotherly love! It is interesting to me that schools and churches who were KJVO long before PCC became KJVO have no problem associating with TW. IMO, the words "BJU Network" conjure up the same feelings as Bill Clinton's "vast, right-wing conspiracy." Such terminology seems carefully crafted to heighten and reinforce the sense of "us" and "them" in the body of Christ...so, so sad that camps and churches who wish to remain neutral are so unfairly labeled according to man-made criteria, and erroneously pigeon-holed into a category that doesn't describe them.

BJU does not hold to the KJV? I'm pretty sure it's the version they use for everything from class studies to preaching. That's an interesting approach for an institution which doesn't hold to the KJV. I'd be curious to know the names of Calvinists on staff at BJU.

Full disclosure (which I've said before on here): I am a BJU grad. My best friends are PCC grads. I can honestly say that while I was at BJU, I never once heard PCC talked about in a negative fashion. I was an education major...you'd think that in four years I'd hear at least one negative comment about a major competitor in curriculum sales. But I heard nothing negative. My impression was that BJU and PCC were very similar schools, with a few minor differences of application. BJU had plenty to say about ecumenism, Billy Graham, Catholics, etc....but I never, ever heard anything about a sister fundamentalist institution.

[Pastorj]

I was on staff at PCC when this began and a pastor by video 3. I used to have copies of letters from Dr. Bob Jones and from Dr. Horton, but they are long gone. There was a lot of correspondence between the two that was not part of the videos. My progression was just on the videos

As to the Wilds - I was just explaining why the Wilds is considered part of the BJU Network. In my opinion, PCC went too far with video 3 and their position of separation. I like the Wilds and believe that they are a good camp, just expensive.

As to BJU - BJU uses the KJV in their undergrad Bible classes. However, their official policy is that the KJV is just one of a number of good translations (Letter from the current President). Their Greek classes do not use the Authorized Text or Textus Receptus. They use the critical text which has produced all of the modern versions. Though they use the KJV, they are not a KJV institution. As to calvinism, I do not have names. My information was given to me by the husband of one of the Professors. They sing, I just don't remember their name. This was also confirmed by two other BJU Bible Grads who did not like the calvinistic teaching that they went through on both the Graduate level and the undergraduate.

[Annie]

As to the Wilds - I was just explaining why the Wilds is considered part of the BJU Network. In my opinion, PCC went too far with video 3 and their position of separation. I like the Wilds and believe that they are a good camp, just expensive.

Right. I understand. Thanks for clarifying.

As to BJU - BJU uses the KJV in their undergrad Bible classes. However, their official policy is that the KJV is just one of a number of good translations (Letter from the current President). Their Greek classes do not use the Authorized Text or Textus Receptus. They use the critical text which has produced all of the modern versions. Though they use the KJV, they are not a KJV institution.

I think you mean that they are not a KJVO institution (if I understand you right), and I'd certainly agree with that description. Why do you think the KJV is the version of choice at BJU?

As to calvinism, I do not have names. My information was given to me by the husband of one of the Professors. They sing, I just don't remember their name. This was also confirmed by two other BJU Bible Grads who did not like the calvinistic teaching that they went through on both the Graduate level and the undergraduate.

Hmmm...This has me thinking...They sing...Hmmm. I do know that few years back, a few Calvinist-leaning professors resigned (on good terms with the school, but because the school didn't like their direction). I'm pretty sure that BJU is careful not to "teach Calvinism." They take pains not to be known as a Calvinistic institution. Calvinism seems to be a fad or trend among Christian college students (and adults) in general these days. But I don't think college students are getting Calvinistic ideas from BJU. I could be wrong; certainly each professor has his own place on the "Calvinist/Arminian" scale.

Wow. Here I am talking about schools again when the thread is supposed to be about The Wilds. What do y'all think? Is it possible (as a church, camp, or other ministry) to remain neutral on the KJV issue? IOW, is it possible to "get along" with--and minister to--people on both sides of the issue? I know that this is what places like The Wilds are trying to do...but can they succeed?

[Bakershalfdozen]

If there really is an avoidance of anything in this so-called "BJ Network", then PCC isn't following their own rule.

ABeka uses Patch the Pirate - Ron Hamilton - who would very much be part of a "BJ Network" since he graduated from there and lives, ministers in Greenville.

https://www.abeka.com/ABekaOnline/CatalogSearch.aspx


The whole thing is ridiculous really. BJU and PCC are both high-quality institutions and both have their pros and cons...just like any other school.

Regarding the Wilds, based on my limited exposure (hearsay and many testimonies from people who have been there), I would say they are doing a fine job of remaining neutral and ministering to whomever visits the camp.

[speerjp1]

What do y'all think? Is it possible (as a church' date=' camp, or other ministry) to remain neutral on the KJV issue?[/quote']

I think Christians and Christian organizations have a responsibility to God and to the people they are influencing to not be neutral on anything. We have God's word and can discern what is right and what is wrong. Once that is decided, we have a responsibility to stand strong for the right regardless of the temporal setbacks. :2cents

Another :2cents :

I've talked with many folks who aren't aware of the battles that rage within fundamentalism. Those battles are not wrong. They are necessary. What is wrong is when churches or institutions make departures from God's word. It is only right that those departures are addressed in the hopes of their being reconciled.

And yet another :2cents :

The man who teaches almost all of the first year Bible students (Dr. Mark Minnick) and his assistant pastor who also teaches in the seminary at BJ (Dr. Ken Cassias) are both very strong Calvinists and they have built their church in Greenville by recruiting students from BJU freshmen classes after they've been set straight on Calvin. As far as I know, they haven't resigned yet. I know all of this first hand, not from hearsay.

I'll stop while I'm just 6 cents in the hole. :tum

[PreacherD]

By neutral, I think what is meant is that the Wilds is willing to work with people on both sides of the KJV issue? What is so wrong with that? I personally am a fan of the KJV, but to think that the KJV is the only Bible for the English language is to be (IMO) uninformed. As a preacher, I am fine with people who want the KJV to be THEIR Bible for their churches. I am also fine with preachers who decide to use the NKJV or NAS. Why can't a camp handle things the same way?

[Guest Guest]

I personally am a fan of the KJV, but to think that the KJV is the only Bible for the English language is to be (IMO) uninformed.

A large percentage of this board is "uninformed" in your opinion then.

As a preacher, I am fine with people who want the KJV to be THEIR Bible for their churches. I am also fine with preachers who decide to use the NKJV or NAS. Why can't a camp handle things the same way?

Many of us don't see it as a "preference" issue. We believe the other English versions currently available are corruptions of the pure Word of God.

[Annie]

I think you might have misunderstood what I meant by the word neutral. I probably didn't express myself well. TW is obviously not neutral in that they do have an official opinion or position (they are not KJVO). The camp is neutral in that it doesn't want to fight about the issue, but rather desires to minister to people of both persuasions.



Right...So, how does this apply to TW, since they aren't KJVO? Should they "stand strong"--as in, make an issue of the fact that they are **NOT KJVO**? I don't see the sense behind this idea.



From my perspective, I don't see a "departure" being made in this case by anyone but PCC. The Wilds hasn't "departed" from anything. Its position has remained unchanged: TW believes as it always has (and apparently as PCC believed until 1998). PCC suddenly changed, and then separated on the basis of that change.

I don't think that all "battles" within fundamentalism are necessarily wrong. I do think some of them are...and that this is one of them. I think the fact that TW doesn't isolate themselves from those who disagree with them on this issue is commendable.



I think you and I have interacted on this point before...We'll just have to disagree agreeably. (This battle is not necessary. :lol ) Suffice it to say that IMO Dr. Minnick is not "a Calvinist." He might be "more Calvinistic than you are," but as far as I know, he has not identified himself as "a Calvinist." I don't know Ken Cassias as well.


:lol:

[Guest Guest]

I haven't read all of the posts...but, I thought I would add that...it is a shame that these camps are "slacking" on various things. We used to go to Skyview Baptist Ranch in Millersburg, OH. The only time I can remember the KJV 1611 AV being preached was one time. A pastor, by the name of Tony...was the only man of God that preached the "real" truth. My son went to camp there for a summer. My in-laws would take the whole family...but, even, as I was being spiritually drawn...I questioned the use of the NKJV/NIV at this camp? I know the Lord has His hand on me, then.

BTW, my church is taking the youth to a camp near Dayton, OH...does anyone know the name? I really haven't kept up on this since my son "grew out of" the camp years. :sad Oh...how I wish I could go back. Also, can someone recommend the names of some good KJV camps, as well? :frog

candlelight

[Annie]

I haven't read all of the posts...but, I thought I would add that...it is a shame that these camps are "slacking" on various things. We used to go to Skyview Baptist Ranch in Millersburg, OH. The only time I can remember the KJV 1611 AV being preached was one time. A pastor, by the name of Tony...was the only man of God that preached the "real" truth. My son went to camp there for a summer. My in-laws would take the whole family...but, even, as I was being spiritually drawn...I questioned the use of the NKJV/NIV at this camp? I know the Lord has His hand on me, then.

BTW, my church is taking the youth to a camp near Dayton, OH...does anyone know the name? I really haven't kept up on this since my son "grew out of" the camp years. :sad Oh...how I wish I could go back. Also, can someone recommend the names of some good KJV camps, as well? :frog

candlelight

Hi, candlelight. Since you didn't read all of the posts, I'll just reiterate here that The Wilds uses only the KJV to preach, teach, and counsel from...so you probably couldn't say they're "slacking," according to your definition. The issue we were discussing was that The Wilds is not officially KJVO...Although the KJV is exclusively used at the camp, the camp's official position is that the KJV is not the only translation that would qualify as God's preserved Word.

[Kayla]

I haven't read all of the posts...but, I thought I would add that...it is a shame that these camps are "slacking" on various things. We used to go to Skyview Baptist Ranch in Millersburg, OH. The only time I can remember the KJV 1611 AV being preached was one time. A pastor, by the name of Tony...was the only man of God that preached the "real" truth. My son went to camp there for a summer. My in-laws would take the whole family...but, even, as I was being spiritually drawn...I questioned the use of the NKJV/NIV at this camp? I know the Lord has His hand on me, then.

BTW, my church is taking the youth to a camp near Dayton, OH...does anyone know the name? I really haven't kept up on this since my son "grew out of" the camp years. :sad Oh...how I wish I could go back. Also, can someone recommend the names of some good KJV camps, as well? :frog

candlelight

I really like Triple "S" in Arkansas but that is a bit far for you.

I also like Hoosier Hills in Indiana. (A bit closer to you)

[PreacherD]

A large percentage of this board is "uninformed" in your opinion then.

Yes. I do believe anyone who believes that the KJV 1611 (which revision are you talking about by the way) is the only translation for the English language, is uninformed. However, I respect them as individuals and I have many of them who are dear friends. I don't think people are trying to be ignorant of the issues, but unfortunately they have been taught to believe that those who would use the NKJV or NAS are somehow compromisers. I really don't have a problem if someone says, "I prefer to use the KJV." I have a problem when those who prefer to use the NKJV or NAS are labeled as liberal or "not true to the Word." This is just ridiculous. Men fought and died for the Word be in the common man's language, yet we have well-meaning people who refuse to allow words like "superfluity of naughtiness" and "evil concupiscience" to be updated.

At any rate, I don't want to hijack this thread. I for one, am thrilled with the Wilds. I have personally been blessed by the preaching there. (all from the KJV) To not take your young people to the Wilds because they don't agree 100% with you on the KJ issue (even though that is all they use from the pulpit and for counseling), seems very silly. Oh well.

Many of us don't see it as a "preference" issue. We believe the other English versions currently available are corruptions of the pure Word of God.

I realize you believe that. Let me ask this - would it ever be possible (in your mind) for someone (or group of people) to put together a translation from the Hebrew and Greek that could/would be better (more accurate and easier to read for the common man) than the KJ translation? Maybe in your mind there aren't any translations out there right now that you like, but do you think that is even a possibility for a better tranlsation to come along? The answer to this question will tell me whether or not you are holding your beliefs based on emotion or reason.

[Guest Guest]

I have a problem when those who prefer to use the NKJV or NAS are labeled as liberal or "not true to the Word.

Your not going to like this board much then. It is mostly KJVO.

I realize you believe that. Let me ask this - would it ever be possible (in your mind) for someone (or group of people) to put together a translation from the Hebrew and Greek that could/would be better (more accurate and easier to read for the common man) than the KJ translation? Maybe in your mind there aren't any translations out there right now that you like, but do you think that is even a possibility for a better tranlsation to come along? The answer to this question will tell me whether or not you are holding your beliefs based on emotion or reason.

Better? Not really. More accurate? No. There would have to be something wrong with the KJV before a new translation could be "better". Pure is just that. However, I do believe that it is "theoretically" possible for a different English translation to be just as good. It would have to be examined VERY closely by many men for flaws before it could be pronounced that however. That is just in theory though because every single currently available English translation beside the KJV has a number of flaws. I seriously doubt that God will bring out a new translation into English unless the language at some point actually does change enough to make the wording of the KJV obsolete. We are still a long way from that.