Textual/version stance

[Guest Guest]

Annie...I thought you said, in one of your posts, that you would be taking a break for awhile from OB. Yet, I log back on...and, find more posts from you? Hmmm? If you have a valid concern...that is one thing, but, it seems like you are "trying" to stir the pot? There are many non-denominational websites out there...BTW.

God's Word has been preseverved...and, that is the KJV. This is a "non-issue" for IFB's. This shouldn't even be discussed unless...one is seeking to know more about the KJV...not, outright...sabatoge. This is my opinion on your threads and constant posts.

candlelight

[Annie]

Annie...I thought you said' date=' in one of your posts, that you would be taking a break for awhile from OB. Yet, I log back on...and, find more posts from you? Hmmm? If you have a valid concern...that is one thing, but, it seems like you are "trying" to stir the pot? There are many non-denominational websites out there...BTW.[/quote']

Candlelight, I'm not trying to stir the pot. I do feel that if a person has gone to the trouble of interacting with one of my posts, they deserve a reply from me. I've actually regretted getting involved in the number of threads in which I'm currently participating. It is hard for me to keep up with all of the discussions, since I'm not sitting at the computer all day. Yet I do feel that I owe people a reply; you probably feel the same way when someone has addressed something you've said. IMO, a pot-stirrer is one who is not interacting with anyone's ideas (which I have been doing), but is just amping up the rhetoric to get attention or get people "stirred up." Such has certainly not been my intention.



Perhaps you don't realize that "IFB" is not synonymous with "KJVO." I know of thousands of IFB believers who are not KJVO. While I agree that it should not be an issue (and do not make it, like some do on here, a test of spirituality or of faith), I am honestly burdened that some DO make it such an issue, and my heart breaks at the divisions this "non-issue" has caused in fundamentalism. I do not believe I have ever displayed an angry spirit on these boards about this issue; please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not angry...just sad.



I'm sorry you have that opinion of me. I certainly do not think the same of you or of anyone else on here. I hope that if you knew me in real life, you would think differently. I would be open to hear what you think has been "outright sabotage" in what I've said. Have we had lively discussion? Frank words? Disagreement? Sure. But sabotage? Please explain, if you would.

[Guest Guest]

Hi Annie! Well, I am glad to know that you are asking legitimate questions, then. Since I grew up in the RCC, I was trapped in a cult for many years...searching for the meaning of life. Prior to my salvation...I did own a NIV Bible. However, thinking back, I should have listened to my young son...now 17. He asked me why I was buying that Bible? He was in the 4th grade at the time. He told me that I would be giving money to people that are clearly not teaching the Word of God. Yes...he came to the "saving knowledge of Jesus Christ" before me.

I don't know where you live? Up north where I live, though, IFB's are "synonymous" with the KJVO. And, I plan on keeping it that way...period. Pentacostals "on the other hand" are not. Some Pentacostal churches use the KJVO, but, most do not.

If you would really like to have a "burden"...walk into a Catholic church, and "try" to figure out what is going on. :roll Maybe you can go into a Mosque? We have plenty in OH. I lived through the RCC, and I know what "false" doctrine is all about. Many of my relatives...my dad included, are in hell. Some are headed in that direction. The Catholic "Institution" blinded them from the truth...and, still is. They are the original Bible Corrupters, FYI. The "division" that I see... is Bible believing Christians "trying" to reason with God's Word. God wrote it...and, that is that! I don't argue with God! I don't see any need to question the KJVO. Not now...not ever!

No, I only know you from the boards...and, I understand you are a teacher. :smile I am a retired school teacher from the Cleveland Municipal School District...where I taught various grades, including...4th, 7th & 8th, 5th, and 2nd grade. I spent the majority of my teaching career, primarily teaching 5th graders. I retired early, at the age of 39. I am now 44.

I see you "trying" to "outright sabotage" by your passive-aggressive approach to reasoning with IFB's on this board. No, you are not "displaying an angry spririt" you are creating much confusion on OB instead. The way I see it...you either believe "wholeheartedly" in the KJVO, stance...or you play the "Devil's Advocate"...which I believe you are doing. This site was a wonderful place to post, yet, I haven't seen "peace" on this board...since these posts have been displayed. In fact, most members are playing games for fun...b/c they don't want to get into "controversial" discussions about the validity of the Bible. Also, I haven't seen some "faithful" members for a couple of days. Hmmm? Maybe you don't see this...but, I do. We are here to debate issues, not argue over the KJVO. Unless you change your tactics, I will NOT be participating in "vain babblings" with you. This is a Christian site...not, a Secular site. Lately, I feel that I am Have a good night.

candlelight

[Annie]

I see you "trying" to "outright sabotage" by your passive-aggressive approach to reasoning with IFB's on this board. No' date=' you are not "displaying an angry spririt" you are creating much confusion on OB instead. The way I see it...you either believe "wholeheartedly" in the KJVO, stance...or you play the "Devil's Advocate"...which I believe you are doing.[/quote']

I do not fit either of your categories...By definition, a "devil's advocate" is a person who really does agree (wholeheartedly) with a certain position, and asks difficult questions of other people who share his position in order to strengthen their (or his own) skills in refuting opposition. Since I am not KJVO, I am not playing the devil's advocate at all.

Rather, I'm asking questions to find out more about the KJVO stance: how people who hold this stance came to believe it; how far these people take their stance; how they choose to interact with others. I believe that all of my posts have fallen appropriately under what is allowed on this forum. If people on this site didn't want to discuss the KJVO issue, then there wouldn't be a forum available to do just that. Apparently, I'm not the first person to ask these kinds of questions.

I don't think I've insulted anybody, or stirred any pots (at least not intentionally). On threads that I haven't started, I have merely voted on polls and explained my position, as asked to do by the thread starter or other posters. On threads that I have started, I've stated clearly what my purposes were (and were not) in starting each thread. No one has told me that I could not start threads about these topics, or respond to other people's threads about these topics. In fact, people have encouraged me to start threads on certain topics, and have responded positively when I have.

I have sensed very little bitterness toward me as I've posted. I can think of one or two people that really didn't like what I had to say, but were (for the most part) gracious in their responses. One of the marks of maturity is that a person is able to discuss things like this without "losing it." Shows of temper and unnecessary censorship reveal immaturity and insecurity. I appreciate the good folks at OB who allow someone like me, who does not agree with the site's KJVO position, to interact with people who do. I have not felt threatened or vulnerable, nor have I tried to threaten anyone else, or make them feel vulnerable. I'd like to think that we're all mature enough to have a frank discussion about such matters without feeling threatened.

Confusion is another matter. I'm not trying to cause confusion. On the contrary, I'm seeking the truth, just as I believe everyone else on here is doing. If you are confused, it might be that you need to talk personally with someone who can help you sort things out.



That is their prerogative. I know there have been times that I haven't felt like discussing anything "heavy" and have ended up in the more lighthearted forums. No one is forced to participate in any discussion.



I believe that I have been "debating issues." The KJVO stance is "an issue," and I've been involved in "debating" it.



Sister in Christ, again, that is your prerogative. I will miss the interaction with you.



I admit I do not understand what you mean by this statement. I am aware that is a Christian site. I am also aware that Christians can have good, frank discussions about doctrinal matters without the bullying, name-calling, sarcasm, and backbiting that occurs on many secular sites. I am willing to ask forgiveness from anyone I've offended with careless words. If you can point out something I've said that is wrong-spirited, I'll be the first to apologize.



Same to you. :wave:

[kevinmiller]

Very good postings Annie. :smile

[John81]

Not when KJVO is consistently being lumped in with Bible doctrines.

KJVO is not a doctrine, but God preserving his word is.

We shouldn't be discussing KJVO as a doctrine that needs to be defended with verses, but a choice with valid historical and textual backing.

If someone chooses to read and follow after perversions of God's word, then so be it.

But when the KJV has consistently been shown to be the most reliable translation from the most reliable source, the choice should be obvious to all believers who honestly want to have a copy of God's word.

I agree, which is why I'm wondering why no one has posted the "valid historical and textual backing" evidence (proof).

[John81]

Myself, I have no problems with folks asking questions of what we believe and why. In fact, Scripture says we should always be ready to give an answer.

We should not get upset or feel attacked because questions are asked in a decent manner. We should also not grow tired of answering some questions over and over again. Just because I explain a point to Fred doesn't mean that someone else might not come along a few weeks later asking the same question. I would be wrong to say that since I've already explained it to Fred that I'm not going to explain it again.

If we have answers for questions asked we should provide them. If we don't have answers we should either remain silent or admit we have no answer.

If I were an unbeliever, a new believer or someone just curious and I looked upon some of the threads on OB where "controversial" questions are asked, by the responses of many I would get the impression that no one has the answers. Granted, that would be the wrong impression, but that's how some threads come off with several people seeming to get upset about questions asked and some casting doubts or personal attacks toward the questioner, or someone saying it's already been discussed, just do a search.

Myself, I stand by the KJB because I firmly believe God led me to the KJB and the Holy Ghost has provided ample testimony in my own life that the KJB is what I should read and study. Beyond that I can provide no answer because I've never felt the need to search for any other answer, but I know others here have, and when they take the time to post such, whether anyone else does or not, I read what they post and consider it.

OB is a great place for folks to learn new things, a great place for spiritual growth, a great place to exercise our faith, but that only takes place when we are willing to share whatever knowledge and wisdom the Lord has blessed us with. And such sharing should be done in love and kindness with the hope that someone will benefit from the sharing.

[speerjp1]

I agree, which is why I'm wondering why no one has posted the "valid historical and textual backing" evidence (proof).

Because so much of that content already exists on this board as well as numerous easy-to-find locations all over the internet and in Christian bookstores.

'Til now, everyone has been trying to accommodate the questions, which were poorly asked from a skewed perspective on this issue.

The truth is abundantly available, but will never be heeded by those who have an ax to grind, unless they stop grinding their ax.

I know brandplucked has posted a lot of great information from his personal studying of this matter. There are others as well.

[speerjp1]

Myself, I have no problems with folks asking questions of what we believe and why. In fact, Scripture says we should always be ready to give an answer.

We should not get upset or feel attacked because questions are asked in a decent manner. We should also not grow tired of answering some questions over and over again. Just because I explain a point to Fred doesn't mean that someone else might not come along a few weeks later asking the same question. I would be wrong to say that since I've already explained it to Fred that I'm not going to explain it again.

If we have answers for questions asked we should provide them. If we don't have answers we should either remain silent or admit we have no answer.

If I were an unbeliever, a new believer or someone just curious and I looked upon some of the threads on OB where "controversial" questions are asked, by the responses of many I would get the impression that no one has the answers. Granted, that would be the wrong impression, but that's how some threads come off with several people seeming to get upset about questions asked and some casting doubts or personal attacks toward the questioner, or someone saying it's already been discussed, just do a search.

Myself, I stand by the KJB because I firmly believe God led me to the KJB and the Holy Ghost has provided ample testimony in my own life that the KJB is what I should read and study. Beyond that I can provide no answer because I've never felt the need to search for any other answer, but I know others here have, and when they take the time to post such, whether anyone else does or not, I read what they post and consider it.

OB is a great place for folks to learn new things, a great place for spiritual growth, a great place to exercise our faith, but that only takes place when we are willing to share whatever knowledge and wisdom the Lord has blessed us with. And such sharing should be done in love and kindness with the hope that someone will benefit from the sharing.

I see nothing wrong with the part I emphasized. We can't keep giving the same information over and over and over again when it already exists here. Suggesting others do a search is a valid response in my opinion.

[John81]

In First Thessolonians we are commanded to show patience toward all men. In a few places in Scripture we are told to provide answers or be ready to provide answers when asked.

Telling someone to do a search is a poor substitute for taking the time to answer the questions. I don't know how well others do with searches on this board but mine turn out bad. Ninety-some percent of the time I can't find what I'm looking for. Even on the very rare occasion I find the thread I'm looking for my question is rarely answered there.

If we have an answer, we should provide the answer. If we think an answer is available in another thread we should find that thread and copy and paste the answer into the new thread. This would be to the benefit of all. How many lurkers do we miss providing important information to simply because we don't take the time to provide answers when asked?

[Pastor Matt]

[offtopic]I'm not sure what terms you use when you search, but I have always found what I am looking for in a search.

If we think an answer is available in another thread we should find that thread and copy and paste the answer into the new thread.

Actually' date=' directing them to the post would benefit the user more. More content that they would be looking for would be in that thread, and any question could be answered there.[/offtopic']

[John81]

[offtopic]I'm not sure what terms you use when you search, but I have always found what I am looking for in a search.

Actually' date=' directing them to the post would benefit the user more. More content that they would be looking for would be in that thread, and any question could be answered there.[/offtopic']

Thank you Bro Matt, I meant to include the posting of a link directly to the post in question which would provide ready access to the entire thread as well, but apparentely I forgot to. Thank you.

When I do a search I use whatever I think would be the keyword in that thread, or I try to search for what I think the title may have been.

[Guest Guest]

In First Thessolonians we are commanded to show patience toward all men. In a few places in Scripture we are told to provide answers or be ready to provide answers when asked.

Telling someone to do a search is a poor substitute for taking the time to answer the questions. I don't know how well others do with searches on this board but mine turn out bad. Ninety-some percent of the time I can't find what I'm looking for. Even on the very rare occasion I find the thread I'm looking for my question is rarely answered there.

If we have an answer, we should provide the answer. If we think an answer is available in another thread we should find that thread and copy and paste the answer into the new thread. This would be to the benefit of all. How many lurkers do we miss providing important information to simply because we don't take the time to provide answers when asked?

Yes, John81,,,and, fellow Christians. I do "wholeheartedly" apologize for NOT exhibiting patience in my posts. I don't do any searches on the Internet, however, because I have been "wonderfully" blessed with 2 IFB churches that have "proven" to me that the KJVO is the "true" Word of God. I know this "intuitively" in my heart...and, as it has been stated, there is much information on the topic of the KJVO, EVERYWHERE. Members on this board provide MUCH needed knowledge on the subject. :thumb

BTW, I don't even know how to "highlight" certain areas of a post, much less "copy and paste a thread on the board". :duh I do know how to post a website, though...so, I got that goin' for me. I did "bump" the Baptist History thread yesterday, and, I do promise to get the information for "proof" as soon as Brother Bruce Musselman returns from his preaching in PA. I am waiting patiently on that. Again, I do apologize for my actions in my previous posts. :smile

candlelight

[Guest Guest]

Annie, here is the crux of the issue. It's not about an SDA, it's not about a movement, it's not about texts and manuscripts and languages. It's about believing God and taking Him at His word. From your stance, you don't even have God's word, so why do you think you have any position at all to argue from?

"Whatsoever is not of faith is sin." "For without faith it is impossible to please God." You will never have true peace about the Bible issue until you realize that, study though you might, and many have, it still comes down to just believing God at His word. Faith isn't a blind hope or yearning for something to be true: "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Faith will create in you the solid evidence of the infallibility of God's word.

Did God promise to preserve His words? Did God say that His word would never pass away? Did He say that His word was settled in Heaven? If He did, then it's obviously available somewhere. What one Book has God used more than any other? What one Book started the spread of missions around the globe? What Book did Queen Victoria tout as the secret to England's greatness?

I don't understand why you (as well as so many others) have such a hard time accepting the King James Bible as God's perfect word. It's become such an integral part of my spiritual life that I cannot fathom questioning the smallest jot or tittle of the King James Bible. God has shown me so completely that this is His word, and it is perfect beyond any earthly perfection. I try to convey that to people, but it seems that they see submission to one Book as a thing to fear, while in fact it brings the most amazing peace and freedom that one could ever imagine.

Yes, I'm known around here as a "Ruckmanite." My husband and I have been repeatedly rebuffed on this site for our beliefs about the Bible. However, that doesn't change the facts: there is no spot or blemish in the King James Bible. The textual issue really is moot, since the King James is a compilation of previous versions and compared with dozens of manuscripts, even taking some readings out of the Latin Vulgate, a Catholic translation! To say that the KJB is but a version of the TR is ridiculous and completely without merit.

As it stands, everyone, including you, Annie, must come to the point where you decide whether or not to believe God and His word. Right now you don't, as evidenced by the kinds of books you're reading and relying on. Those men have done nothing but question (Genesis 3:2) God's word and pervert it (Gal. 1:7) at the behest of the devil. Instead of reading books about the Bible, take some time and see what God said about His own word. The Bible is it's own best commentary, as it's been said.

For clarification of what my husband and I believe: we believe the King James Bible to be the preserved, perfect, inerrant word of God, given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit through the AV translation committee. (2 Tim. 3:16, Job 32:8; Ps. 12:6-7, Pro. 30:5, Ps. 119:89) The King James is the word of God for the end times; as the Old Testament (Hebrew) was, and the New Testament (Greek), so the King James translation of the Bible in English is God's method of propagating His word in these days. These statements are to us unquestionable and absolutely correct, as they are what the Bible teaches about God's word, and since we believe the KJB to be His word, therefore It inherits all the qualities attributed to God's word.

I hope you honestly read all of this post; a lot of thought and effort went into preparing it for you to read. I urge you to get rid of books about the Bible, and simply read the Bible. God can speak to you through that Book, but I guarantee He won't use a book attacking His word.

[Guest Guest]

KJB_Princess...Well said! I John 1:5-7...This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. KJV 1611 AV. Note: The word cleanse is in the linear tense...therefore, God keeps on cleansing us (it is on-going).

candlelight