Windsor Hills Youth Conference - Giving away an AR-15

[John81]

Your view of what a gun is for and when one should learn to use a gun is your own opinion, not some fact we should all abide by. If that is how you wish to raise your children that's fine.

However, for tens of thousands of others, guns are a tool a boy (sometimes girls too) learns to use and respect at an early age. They are a hunting tool that puts food on the table. The are a protective tool that protects loved ones from coyotes, snakes, rabid animals, etc. In times of emergency such as a riot or war this tool can protect ones loved ones from brutal beatings, rape and murder.

For some folks, like the vast majority in this area, a gun is a common tool used from childhood to old age. For some folks, such as yourself, a gun is nothing more than a weapon you see little use for. I have no problem with either position so long as neither one tries to force their will upon all others.

[Guest Guest]

:amen: John. For people to come down hard on Jim Vineyard and Windsor Hills is very harsh. You don't know someone's circumstances in their IFB churches, "Unless you have walked 100 miles in their shoes". As I have stated before...this is Oklahoma City. :smile

candlelight

[Guest Guest]

I do not want my children to learn how to kill before they learn how to drive.

Your choice. However, others obviously disagree. I had shot a number of highly aggressive, wild, livestock killing dogs by the time I was 12 or so not to mention various pests such as venomous snakes, feed stealing raccoons, etc. I had been shooting for years before that, exactly how early I don't remember, but I do remember a 22 rifle being taller than me and always having to rest it on something before shooting because I wasn't strong enough to actually hold it out steady... I didn't actually own those guns at that time but I was given 22 ammunition and allowed to take them out to shoot almost any time I asked... You may feel that is a dangerous way to raise a child but just know that a significant number of rural americans are almost born with a gun in their hands. Yes, even today. Very few people are accidentally injured by guns in the country, there are some of course, but over all other farm and ranch equipment is much more dangerous... Gun safety is taught at a very early age... Keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot and NEVER allow the muzzle of even an empty gun to cross anyone. These things are deeply impressed... Children can be far more mature than you give them credit for. often times the children who show no maturity are that way because they are raised with no real responsibilities. I have seen people in there mid twenties who were less emotionally mature than some five year olds...

[John81]

Your choice. However, others obviously disagree. I had shot a number of highly aggressive, wild, livestock killing dogs by the time I was 12 or so not to mention various pests such as venomous snakes, feed stealing raccoons, etc. I had been shooting for years before that, exactly how early I don't remember, but I do remember a 22 rifle being taller than me and always having to rest it on something before shooting because I wasn't strong enough to actually hold it out steady... I didn't actually own those guns at that time but I was given 22 ammunition and allowed to take them out to shoot almost any time I asked... You may feel that is a dangerous way to raise a child but just know that a significant number of rural americans are almost born with a gun in their hands. Yes, even today. Very few people are accidentally injured by guns in the country, there are some of course, but over all other farm and ranch equipment is much more dangerous... Gun safety is taught at a very early age... Keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot and NEVER allow the muzzle of even an empty gun to cross anyone. These things are deeply impressed... Children can be far more mature than you give them credit for. often times the children who show no maturity are that way because they are raised with no real responsibilities. I have seen people in there mid twenties who were less emotionally mature than some five year olds...

I can relate to all that!

[Guest Guest]

Hey Seth. :smile My hubby and his 5 brothers were raised just like you. :thumb They just went to the next county over to learn how to hunt and shoot. Your post was right on...ITA! My hubby's parents are at their cottage with their daughters now. They probably went target shooting today. :smile

candlelight

[rancher824]

Brother, in this post you seem to be completely anti-gun. Guns like many other things are not bad, it the sin from within a person that is bad which causes them to misuse. Which us poor sinners can misuse man things.

But that said, I suppose rancher824 does not approve of what God did many years ago.

15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 2:15-17

I suppose he never tells his children there are things they are suppose to stay away from, not to touch, not to do, for fear of making it a temptation for them.

The main problem now is caused from children whose parents allow them do anything and everything and will not punish them nor correct them for fear of crushing their self esteem. Today we have many parents who when growing up were never corrected, never taught discipline, now raising children, because they were never made to mind, they know not how to control their children and thus their children are undisciplined.

My biggest problem when my daughter was growing up was parents who had no control over their children and let them run wild. Because my daughter saw them running wild, she thought I ought to let her run with them. I know now days that problem has grown much worse.

I see I was torn to peices while I worked!! LOL. I do believe God had every right to make laws and rules. Ours today should reflect those He gave. I believe very strongly in disapline and rules. That said, You and brosmith are making it sound like a 8 year old having a 22 cal rifle is on equals to an adult living in fornication. You are making it into a sin. Can anyone give me a Bible verse that says a child should not hold a weapon?? Davids older brothers said he was to young to be at the battle ground. He came out the champion of Israel. I admit there are things that a parent must make rules against a child doing. But most things a child is not to touch, not including things God reserves for marriage, they should be allowed to work with them under suppervision. To learn how to handle them. Your arguments make me think of the pro drink and pro smoke people. It is alright as long as you are over 18 or 21. NO!! It is not alright over or under. I have heard of people sending their children out of the room so they could watch their soap opera that the children were to young to watch. Well, the kids did not need to see it, but neither did their parents!!! Most would say a 8 year old should not drive. The law says they cannot, so we must obey the law. But in my part of the world it is legal for them to drive to move farm equipment. And some of them are rather good at it!! And you may think it to be silly to let a first grader carry a gun to school. But when my grandfather was growing up (arround 1900) in Oklahoma that was not the exception, but the rule. So you are saying that the majority of People in this area in 1900 were silly. Sounds like a bit judgemental of our forfathers to me!!!

By the way, maybe you guys are right. Guns can hurt kids. I will tell mine never to touch them. I broke my brothers nose with a baseball when we were kids. I guess that is out. I know a girl who got her foot in a law maower. That is out. I fell and hurt my arm as a kid playing touch football. still have problems there. Out. Fell off a bed and cut my head open on a mirror as a child. beds and mirrors are out. Boy, maybe I need a bunch of bubble wrap to put arround them. Oh no wait. Lots of children have suffocated with plastic products. Better not let your children be any where around plastic bags. It is silly to let a child handle a plastic bag even if closely supporvised. They might get hurt.

[JerryNumbers]

I see I was torn to peices while I worked!! LOL. I do believe God had every right to make laws and rules. Ours today should reflect those He gave. I believe very strongly in disapline and rules. That said, You and brosmith are making it sound like a 8 year old having a 22 cal rifle is on equals to an adult living in fornication. You are making it into a sin. Can anyone give me a Bible verse that says a child should not hold a weapon?? Davids older brothers said he was to young to be at the battle ground. He came out the champion of Israel. I admit there are things that a parent must make rules against a child doing. But most things a child is not to touch, not including things God reserves for marriage, they should be allowed to work with them under suppervision. To learn how to handle them. Your arguments make me think of the pro drink and pro smoke people. It is alright as long as you are over 18 or 21. NO!! It is not alright over or under. I have heard of people sending their children out of the room so they could watch their soap opera that the children were to young to watch. Well, the kids did not need to see it, but neither did their parents!!! Most would say a 8 year old should not drive. The law says they cannot, so we must obey the law. But in my part of the world it is legal for them to drive to move farm equipment. And some of them are rather good at it!! And you may think it to be silly to let a first grader carry a gun to school. But when my grandfather was growing up (arround 1900) in Oklahoma that was not the exception, but the rule. So you are saying that the majority of People in this area in 1900 were silly. Sounds like a bit judgemental of our forfathers to me!!!

By the way, maybe you guys are right. Guns can hurt kids. I will tell mine never to touch them. I broke my brothers nose with a baseball when we were kids. I guess that is out. I know a girl who got her foot in a law maower. That is out. I fell and hurt my arm as a kid playing touch football. still have problems there. Out. Fell off a bed and cut my head open on a mirror as a child. beds and mirrors are out. Boy, maybe I need a bunch of bubble wrap to put arround them. Oh no wait. Lots of children have suffocated with plastic products. Better not let your children be any where around plastic bags. It is silly to let a child handle a plastic bag even if closely supporvised. They might get hurt.

Please, don't put words in my mouth that I never said.

But I will say this, young children do not need guns when supervision is not present.

Brother your insults are not funny. One can get a lot more said by leaving the sarcasm, insulting off. That is not the least bit Christ like. Surely we don't have to act like children who had their toys taken away when we disagree.

[Guest Guest]

But I will say this, young children do not need guns when supervision is not present.

That is another issue. I wasn't usually supervised when I was little and had no issues but I wouldn't argue that point. In the initial post the teens were under direct supervision.

[rancher824]

Please, don't put words in my mouth that I never said.

But I will say this, young children do not need guns when supervision is not present.

Brother your insults are not funny. One can get a lot more said by leaving the sarcasm, insulting off. That is not the least bit Christ like. Surely we don't have to act like children who had their toys taken away when we disagree.

Bro Jerry, I am sorry if my post was offensive to you. I took great offense to your post that I quoted. Saying that I would not approve of what God did, and that I would not properly raise my children. I am unsure of what words I put into your mouth. What I said is what I got out of your post. If it is silly for a person to let their child carry a gun in first grade, it would seem to me it would be sinful to put that child and others in such mortal danger. Brosmith said "God told Israel not to touch the accursed thing (Joshua 6:18; 7:1,11). Paul said that it is good for a man not to touch a woman. We teach our children not to touch alcohol, tobacco, drugs, ect. because we know the harmful effects of such things." From these two I said that it was putting it on an equality to a adult living in fornication. As to the "insults" you said were not funny. What do you call your saying that I "never tells his children" or perhaps "does not approve of what God did many years ago" or for that matter in this post "act like children who had their toys taken away". Were these not insults?? And I do believe if a child should never be left alone with a gun, then all the things I listed should be observed. I said it in sarcasm, but I whole heartedly believe it. As to the "That is not the least bit Christ like", I just love to hear that statement. Most of the statements I have heard it said about would not even start to compare with "O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh" or "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?". I am afraid that most christians would find Christ very unchrist like. But I realize you only said that as an insult so I would see I was wrong. Again I am sorry if I took anything out of context of your statements.

[JerryNumbers]

Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

http://www.koco.com/news/16860079/detail.html

[John81]

Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

http://www.koco.com/news/16860079/detail.html

:sad

Too bad for this years youth but at least they already have their giveaway bought for next year. :smile

[JerryNumbers]

<>

I apologize for taking so long to reply. But I have been trying to reply to this since yesterday, but every time I hit "submit" it does not post, but gets lost in the wide world web and I have to rewrite it, I lost track of times this has happened this time around. I hope it will now post. I have not been evading to give you an answer.

I was replying to the quote above, being as you feel this way, surely you would not approve of God putting tree of the knowledge of good and evil right in front of Adam and Eve but yet telling them not to eat of it.

15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Gen 2:15-17 (KJV)

Yes to me you seems to say God did wrong here, that He should have not ever put anything in front of Adam and Eve that might tempt them. I say that because you seem to imply, don't tell your children there are things they are not suppose to do nor to touch , for when you do this your just tempting them, so let them have at anything that is in front of them, that way your not tempting your children.

The true way to do this is teach you children to mind you, if this is done it can save much trouble and even save lives, them those things you tell your children not to do or touch, they will leave alone, for after all you tell them this because you love them and want them to remain safe. Just as God has laid out in the Bible the commandments we ought to keep, He did this because He loves us and for our safety.

Before you and I, and all children, everyone, there is always going to be temptations in front of us, but we must learn to resist them, the way to teach our children to resist them, is teach them the things they should not partake of, we cannot always take the temptation our from in front of them

But no, you seem to say just don't say they can't do something, that's tempting them.

Maybe that is not what you mean, but by saying those words that is exactly what it means.

[rancher824]

<>

I apologize for taking so long to reply. But I have been trying to reply to this since yesterday, but every time I hit "submit" it does not post, but gets lost in the wide world web and I have to rewrite it, I lost track of times this has happened this time around. I hope it will now post. I have not been evading to give you an answer.

I was replying to the quote above, being as you feel this way, surely you would not approve of God putting tree of the knowledge of good and evil right in front of Adam and Eve but yet telling them not to eat of it.

15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Gen 2:15-17 (KJV)

Yes to me you seems to say God did wrong here, that He should have not ever put anything in front of Adam and Eve that might tempt them. I say that because you seem to imply, don't tell your children there are things they are not suppose to do nor to touch , for when you do this your just tempting them, so let them have at anything that is in front of them, that way your not tempting your children.

The true way to do this is teach you children to mind you, if this is done it can save much trouble and even save lives, them those things you tell your children not to do or touch, they will leave alone, for after all you tell them this because you love them and want them to remain safe. Just as God has laid out in the Bible the commandments we ought to keep, He did this because He loves us and for our safety.

Before you and I, and all children, everyone, there is always going to be temptations in front of us, but we must learn to resist them, the way to teach our children to resist them, is teach them the things they should not partake of, we cannot always take the temptation our from in front of them

But no, you seem to say just don't say they can't do something, that's tempting them.

Maybe that is not what you mean, but by saying those words that is exactly what it means.

I can see how you could take what I said that way. I sometimes do not word things quite right. My point is not that children should have the right to do as they please. My point is that if you tell me that I am silly to let my child shoot, because it is dangerious, it is also dangerious to do the things I mentioned. If I take away what you see as dangerious, I should also take away what I see as dangerous. And someone else may have a differant list that we must go by. And pretty soon my child is not allowed to do anything, it is all to dangerous. Now what is a child who is told to do nothing but sit there going to do. They will become rebelious. They will do something. And the route they choose may be the one that leads to their hurt. So each parent must decide what they feel is to dangerous for their children. If you do not want you child to touch a gun, that is fine. But I will say just as much as you think it is silly for a first grader to carry a gun to school, I think it is silly for a gun owner not to take their child out and teach them to properly handle a fire arm. A gun is a lot less dangerous if a child is taught to handle it than if not. Oh, and by the way, there was no way for Adam and Eve to be taught how to handle the forbidden fruit. Nor were they watching God partake of it. It was bad to touch no matter what. A gun is not evil. But, yes a child should obey their parents.

[Guest Guest]

Rancher824...Great posts. :thumb No one quite says what they actually intend to say, the right way, on a message board. It is difficult when we are talking over the internet as opposed to face-to-face communication. Body language is 90% of how people communicate effectively. It is no wonder things are going this well. :lol

candlelight

[JerryNumbers]

I can see how you could take what I said that way. I sometimes do not word things quite right. My point is not that children should have the right to do as they please. My point is that if you tell me that I am silly to let my child shoot, because it is dangerious, it is also dangerious to do the things I mentioned. If I take away what you see as dangerious, I should also take away what I see as dangerous. And someone else may have a differant list that we must go by. And pretty soon my child is not allowed to do anything, it is all to dangerous. Now what is a child who is told to do nothing but sit there going to do. They will become rebelious. They will do something. And the route they choose may be the one that leads to their hurt. So each parent must decide what they feel is to dangerous for their children. If you do not want you child to touch a gun, that is fine. But I will say just as much as you think it is silly for a first grader to carry a gun to school, I think it is silly for a gun owner not to take their child out and teach them to properly handle a fire arm. A gun is a lot less dangerous if a child is taught to handle it than if not. Oh, and by the way, there was no way for Adam and Eve to be taught how to handle the forbidden fruit. Nor were they watching God partake of it. It was bad to touch no matter what. A gun is not evil. But, yes a child should obey their parents.

Forgive me again, i did not know if this posted or not, and while writing it I got a bit frustrated at my computer, I've spent the rest of the day fixing it, but all is well now except my brain is still aggravated from the problem.

Growing up we lived at and intersection, a cross roads, the road going north and south was gravel, I could ride my bicycle on it, the road running in front of our house east and west was a well traveled blacktop highway. I was not allowed to ride on it.

My friends could ride their bicycle on the highway, I couldn't, but I never rebelled because father and mother would not let me ride on that highway,

So your story does not hold water.

I thought my father and mother were mean to me at that time, but that were looking out for my own good, but still, I did not rebel.

When a child rebels, there is a way to stop it, but it surely is not by letting them do something that is dangerous, what ever it may be. Young children carrying a gun with out supervision of an adult is silly, that is my opinion.

I also think its silly for parents to let their young children ride their bicycles on the highway. I had a classmate, he did not live close to me, whose mother allowed him to ride his bicycle up and down the highway. Guess what, during grade school, 4th or 5th grade he went right in front of a car on his bicycle, it nearly killed him, he spent a very long time in the hospital, this was years ago because I'm 61 year of age now, he was never the same. I'm very thankful my father and mother had enough sense not to let me ride on the highway when I was younger, or I might say, I'm very glad they were not silly like his mother was. And yes, his mother regretted letting her son ride that bicycle on the highway till the day she died, but regrets did no one any good, it was to late. Oh, he was riding down the highway them decided he wanted to go the other direction, turned right in front of the car, yes, young children do stupid things, parent have to protect them until they are old and or mature enough.

I might add, somewhere around the age of 12 to 16, depending on that particular child and how responsible they are, them carrying a small caliber gun hunting by their self and or with a friend, I see no problem with it. But they need supervision before that time, that is the time to prove their self responsible to the father and or the one looking after them.

Thur the years I have seen many young people get hurt, just because the parent would not say not to their young child. All of them were very sorry for not saying NO to their child. Children are children, they do not have the judgment to be allowed to do many things, parents need to be careful, or they may have wish they had of said NO to their child after its to late, them like the mother I spoke of, regret it till the day they die.

But, I stand strong, church is no place to draw children with guns. Church is not about guns, but many churches will use any method they can to draw people. But your suppose to draw them with Jesus Christ and the Word, if you do more than likely they will stay, draw them with worldly things, more than like they will go our from among us, for they were never of us, they just came for the worldly part.