Let's See How Many Times...

[Wilchbla]

1) Abraham was before the law.

2) Abraham still had to maintain works for salvation. This would explain James 2.

3) Abraham didn't believe on Christ. He believed what God said about the stars of heaven.

4) Under the law their was no faith as Paul said. In fact, they were shut up unto it.

5) The gospel of Christ was hid from the prophets though they sought it out diligently.

6) The apostles didn't even understand the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ when he explained it to them. In fact, it was hid from them.

You can't tell me that if you lived under the law (i.e. from Mt. Sinai to the sacrifice of Christ that you would tell someone they would be saved by faith only. Especially since Galatians said they were 'shut up unto it". If this was the case then why keep the law? Christ's sacrifice did away with it. But not until he made it.

Again, the law does not give eternal life but you were still saved by keeping it. Christ ultimately gives eternal life. This is why folks in the OT didn't go to heaven. They waited in Abraham's Bosom. But to get there you better believe they had to keep the law and sacrifices. God "forbeared" or put up with them until Christ made the full atonement once and for all. Then they got the eternal life and entered heaven because their sins were permently remitted then.

[Wilchbla]

"You are contradicting yourself. First you correctly admit that man could not keep the law and then you say if they didn't keep it they went to hell. Unless you believe everyone who died before Christs atonement went to hell for their sin(and I know you do not believe that) then your statement makes no sense."

This is not a contradiction. They had to keep the law to enter Abraham's Bosom. They would never have a chance of entering heaven unless they keep the law and sacrifices. Now, when Christ came and made the full atonement they received eternal life in heaven. So the law had to be kept to have any chance of eternal life yet ultimately it was Christ's sacrifice that gave it to them. Their obedience to God in keeping the laws and sacrifices was a witness to God of what Christ would do. It was a TEMPORARY remitting of sins but not permanent since animal sacrifices couldn't do that. But God spared them because of their obedience until the time Christ made the sacrifce. Remeber, Christ also had to keep the whole law too as well as make the sacrifice.

If they were saved like we are today or strictly by faith then why didn't they enter heaven but have to reside in Abraham's Bosom when they died?

If Christ had somehow failed at keeping the law and making the perfect sacrifice then all those in Abraham's Bosom, as well as everyone throughout history, would have been lost.

[Germany4Christ]

Wilchbla, you have not as of yet given us a single verse of Scripture showing that people in the Old testament had to be saved by works. If they did then I don't see how Sampson could possibly be mentioned in Hebrews 11. Until you provide Scriptual evidence to validate your point no one is going to be inclined to listen to you.

[lettheredeemedsayso]

a person was saved by GRACE in the Old Testament. As far back as the Book of Genesis' date=' God's [b']Grace... NOT their works has saved a person. If that were not the case, then, a person could be their own god as seen in Genesis 3:1-5. Paying particular attention to verse 5... For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil (The very first lie from Satan in the Bible.)

I will start:

Genesis 13:4... Unto the place of the altar, which he had made there at the first: and there Abram called on the name of the LORD. King James Bible

Above we see that Abram's (later... Abraham) works led up to God/Jesus Christ... saving his soul. God saw that Abram was going to sacrifice Isaac, thus, God saved Abram due to this courageous act. Abram was being obedient to God. God put a Ram off in the distance... exactly at that point, to be sacrificed.

No where in the Bible does a person's works save them. How could they? God's grace is sufficient! We are NOT gods.

We do not follow the New Age movement.

[Revelation3:20]

Under the law their was no faith as Paul said. In fact, they were shut up unto it.

I am sorry, you appear to be willing ignorant of the scriptures and there is nothing i can do about that.

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

This is not a contradiction. They had to keep the law to enter Abraham's Bosom. They would never have a chance of entering heaven unless they keep the law and sacrifices.

Then you are calling King David, many of the prophets, and Jesus Christ liars. The law CANNOT be kept by anyone that is not perfect. Christ is the ONLY perfect one and the ONLY one EVER to keep the law. All other men can only come to God by grace through faith because they all sin and come short of the glory of God. As has been pointed out, the scriptures teach that if you keep every law but one perfectly you are just as guilty as if you had broken all. To say that OT believers had to work for their salvation is a lie that trivializes sin. Grace through faith is the only thing that could ever save any fallen man because the gap between the Holiness of God and the sinfulness of man is so great. The smallest amount of works for salvation poisons grace and it is no more grace but law. There is not a law given that could give life as Paul says. The law stands for the Holiness of God and it kills a sinful man without grace every time.

Galatians 3:21-25 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

They did not possess all knowledge that we possess today, but they knew salvation was only by faith in God not by works. The schoolmaster the law showed that.

[1Timothy115]

1) Abraham was before the law.
2) Abraham still had to maintain works for salvation. This would explain James 2.

I believe Abraham was saved by faith.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

I also believe Isaiah knew exactly what faith in Christ was and believed.

Isaiah 53:1-12
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

What do you think about Isaiah?

[candlelight]

We do not follow the New Age movement.

Amen, lettheredeemersayso! The "New Age" movement is so sad. The soon to be... "Emerging Church" which began in Genesis 3:1-5. Paying particular attention to verse 5... For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil (The very first lie from Satan in the Bible.) has been out in full force... since the beginning of mankind. Satan planted it there.

Wilchbla... as you know, we ARE in the "Age of Grace" or the "Dispensation of Grace"... however, in the OT and in the End Times GRACE not WORKS brought man and WILL bring man to the "saving knowledge of Jesus Christ."

I love this verse that Revelation3:20... pointed out:

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

I believe Abraham was saved by faith.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

I also believe Isaiah knew exactly what faith in Christ was and believed.

Isaiah 53:1-12
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

What do you think about Isaiah?

1Tim115... pointed out all of the scriptures above. Isaiah is a clear picture of that.

In Christ ~

Molly