women The Morality Behind Christian Women Wearing Pants

[heartstrings]

3 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Although I have engaged in this discussion with a push toward a more precise understanding of God's Word on the matter (which causes me to appear as the "contrarian"), I have NO ARGUMENT WHATSOEVER AT ALL with the above posting.  Something IS wrong among believers in the matter of attire, and it is NOT just about "pants on women."

By the way, I wish to add that something is NOT just wrong with the choices that the adult women and young ladies are making for their attire; but something is also VERY wrong with husbands and fathers who are not doing anything to prevent it.  Not all may agree with me on the following, but -- I say shame on the women; and I say shame on the men much, much MORE.

''Susie'' wants to wear that form-fitting, low cut dress with the "slit" all the way up as far as she dares and Mom says it's Ok. What are you going to do if you are merely a "leader" of the home and have no authority?

[Pastor Scott Markle]

46 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

''Susie'' wants to wear that form-fitting, low cut dress with the "slit" all the way up as far as she dares and Mom says it's Ok. What are you going to do if you are merely a "leader" of the home and have no authority?

"Susie" is 15 years old, so shame on me for not discipling my own wife for the past 15 years.

[heartstrings]

Oh, is YOUR daughter named "Susie". My deepest apologies! I just picked a random name. 

[heartstrings]

And how do you "discipline" a wife?

Honey....bring me the paddle(again)....now this is going to hurt me more than it is you. No, on second thought, just go to your room. You're grounded.

 

[Pastorj]

6 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

And how do you "discipline" a wife?

Honey....bring me the paddle(again)....now this is going to hurt me more than it is you. No, on second thought, just go to your room. You're grounded.

 

He said discipling, not disciplining :)

[heartstrings]

Oh, I'm sorry, my eye sight is not what it used to be. lol

Yes, that would make more sense.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

20 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

Oh, is YOUR daughter named "Susie". My deepest apologies! I just picked a random name. 

No, sir.  I was simply continuing your hypothetical, and inserting myself so as NOT to confront anyone else directly.  Actually, I myself have 2 sons (a 22 year old & a 17 year old) and NO daughters.  Oh, and I DO have a wife of 25 years in marriage.
 

17 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

And how do you "discipline" a wife?

Honey....bring me the paddle(again)....now this is going to hurt me more than it is you. No, on second thought, just go to your room. You're grounded.

 

Woe now!!!!  Discipline my wife - Are you CRAZY!!!  As Brother "PastorJ" pointed out above (and you acknowledged), I said DISCIPLE my wife (one of the God-give responsibilities of the godly husband).

[heartstrings]

4 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

No, sir.  I was simply continuing your hypothetical, and inserting myself so as NOT to confront anyone else directly.  Actually, I myself have 2 sons (a 22 year old & a 17 year old) and NO daughters.  Oh, and I DO have a wife of 25 years in marriage.
 

Woe now!!!!  Discipline my wife - Are you CRAZY!!!  As Brother "PastorJ" pointed out above (and you acknowledged), I said DISCIPLE my wife (one of the God-give responsibilities of the godly husband).

Yes, I already know what you said, and you already know that brother Scott, why reiterate it?   Brother "pastor j" already corrected me, and I  acknowledged my mistake..........but I'm still "crazy"   

[Pastor Scott Markle]

25 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

Yes, I already know what you said, and you already know that brother Scott, why reiterate it?   Brother "pastor j" already corrected me, and I  acknowledged my mistake..........but I'm still "crazy"   

Sorry for my miscommunication, Brother Wayne.  My comment was intended to come off as a JOKE, not as a rebuke.  I was trying to go for light-hearted.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Pastor Scott Markle

[heartstrings]

Ok. No harm done :) 

[2bLikeJesus]

I keep seeing this issue being argued as one of "modesty" when modesty has nothing to do with 

Deuteronomy 22:5 King James Version (KJV)

⁵ The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.

Dresses can be just as immodest if not more immodest than pants.  We had one woman that wore dresses that were high necked and below the knee but were so tight and thin that if she got goosebumps you could probably see it through the material.  Another wore a dress that had a "flesh toned" panel on the front that caused every warm blooded male to do at least a double take at her chest to make sure she wasn't indeed topless.

It is an issue of women vs. men's clothing.  Nothing to do with whether either or both are immodest.  Only what is considered sex appropriate because a clear delineation between the sexes is very important to God.  God is NOT in favor of unisex and pants are unisex.  

[heartstrings]

Right! Two issues. Both are important, but we got off track.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

2 hours ago, 2bLikeJesus said:

It is an issue of women vs. men's clothing.  

Yet that is just what I am contending is not precisely accurate.  Rather, it is an issue of women's CLOTHING vs. men's SOMETHING ELSE.

Deuteronomy 22:5 -- "The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, nether shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God."

On ‎5‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 1:18 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Two DIFFERENT phrases in translation:

1.  "that which pertaineth unto a man"
2.  "a woman's garment"

Two DIFFERENT Hebrew words:

1.  כְּלִי ("kaliy," Strong's #3627)
2.  שִׂמְלָה ("simlah," Strong's #8071)

Two DIFFERENT meanings:

1.  Something manufactured from natural substances (such as wood, metal, stone, precious stone, animal skin).
2.  Something made of (woven) clothe, clothing.

Two DIFFERENT Biblical uses when applied to an individual's attire:

1.  With 325 occurrences in the Old Testament, it NEVER once refers to clothing itself, but does refer to something a man might wear - and that is . . . (yes, I have an answer).
2.  With 29 occurrences in the Old testament, it always refers to clothing (made from clothe) of some kind.

So, that which is DIFFERENT is NOT the same, right?  I did not choose these differences.  Rather, God the Holy Spirit Himself inspired these DIFFERENCES.  I wonder if He had a reason.  I wonder if we should consider His reason.

 

[The Kitchen Help]

This is such an old diversion, able still to get us all off track. Anything that distracts from the Holy Spirit working in hearts has to be examined carefully. If someone visits our church, don't care what they dress like as long as they stay long enough to hear the preaching and the altar call. So maybe if our group looks a little...different...from time to time, it just means we are reaching the target.  Personally I wear skirts at church just because pastor doesn't want a needless distraction in the leadership, and I'm an adult teacher, organist, etc, so visible.  He's responsible for the flock, I'm responsible to be a good team member, so there you go.  We have a clear goal, "bring them in."  Don't get side-tracked from that, and the rest will follow.  

[Pastor Scott Markle]

29 minutes ago, The Kitchen Help said:

This is such an old diversion, able still to get us all off track. Anything that distracts from the Holy Spirit working in hearts has to be examined carefully. 

Interesting that a Holy Spirit inspired command is considered "an old diversion."  Yet the Holy Spirit Himself DID indeed INSPIRE the command of Deuteronomy 22:5, which would move me to conclude that the Holy Spirit Himself DOES care about this matter and that this matter IS a part of the Holy Spirit's working in our hearts.

31 minutes ago, The Kitchen Help said:

If someone visits our church, don't care what they dress like as long as they stay long enough to hear the preaching and the altar call. So maybe if our group looks a little...different...from time to time, it just means we are reaching the target.  

Yet this matter is NOT about the unsaved visitors or the brand new converts, but is about the obedience and spiritual growth of believers.

33 minutes ago, The Kitchen Help said:

Personally I wear skirts at church just because pastor doesn't want a needless distraction in the leadership, and I'm an adult teacher, organist, etc, so visible.  He's responsible for the flock, I'm responsible to be a good team member, so there you go.  

Yet this matter is NOT about following the leadership of a pastor, but is about faithful submission and obedience unto the Lord our God Himself.  The command of Deuteronomy 22:5 is in GOD'S WORD.  it is not the word of a pastor.  it is the WORD OF GOD.  It supersedes the authority of ANY pastoral leadership. 

37 minutes ago, The Kitchen Help said:

We have a clear goal, "bring them in."  Don't get side-tracked from that, and the rest will follow.  

Indeed, we DO have a clear goal; for the greatest command of all, as per the estimation of our Lord Jesus Christ Himself is -- "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." (See Matthew 22:37; Mark 12:30)  So then, if you really feel the need to narrow all of the doctrine and instruction within God's Holy Word unto one responsibility, then THIS should be that one responsibility.  Even so, how shall we demonstrate this "all-heart," "all-soul," "all-mind" love unto the Lord our God?  Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself gave answer in John 14:21, "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."  

Furthermore, how can a believer be empowered to be an effective witness unto the lost world?  Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself gave answer in John 15:4-5, "Abide in me, and I in you.  As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.  I am the vine, ye are the branches.  He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."  So then, how can a believer abide in Christ?  Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself gave answer in John 15:10, "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."  

It appears to me that understanding and obeying all of the commandments that the Lord our God has given us in His Holy Word (including the command of Deuteronomy 22:5) is SIGNIFICANTLY and SPIRITUALLY IMPORTANT, not "an old diversion" that "side-tracks" us.