Inerrancy of Scripture - Bible believer or bible agnostic?

[Guest Guest]

God says His Word would be available forever to His people. If every person has to wade through multiple manuscripts to access these words' date=' then God has not kept His promise. Your claim that the Holy Spirit will guide you in this manner is so subjective - do you have access to all the manuscripts? Can you read them? How come your conclusion differ from every other Bible critic? The fact that they keep putting out newer Bible versions that are different from each other show that no group of Bible critics can agree on what should and should not be in there.[/quote']


Hi Jerry, I Know for a fact that God chose 54 men originally---then, that got narrowed down to 47. I don't know where that thread is---and, believe me I wish that Bro. Bruce wasn't on the "circuit" again preaching. LOL. I have a PC waiting for him. hehe. Well, that is his work for the Lord. God bless the life of an evangelist. :thumb I can't remember what state he told me he was even traveling to. :frog

[kevinmiller]

I'm not entirely sure what Free Presbyterians believe since I haven't done a lot of research about them, personally. Thank you very much for your encouraging words, though. I appreciate it. I do hope that God uses me in a great way for Him wherever He wants me to do it. And your pastor is right, it's impossible to know another person's heart, which is why I tend to try and worry about myself and let God worry about others. Thanks for the post. :smile

[trc123]

Couple of thoughts......

1. While I think I understand some arguments concerning studying a variety of Bibles to make certain there is a preponderance of agreement, I find Annie's ascertain that God has scattered his Word all over the place and we must play a game of hide and seek (my interpretation of what she said, not her words) in order to find it and understand it to be much more complex and far fetched than I can muster faith to believe. I've always believed (since salvation came to me) that God knows how sinful and ignorant we are as a people and that God always takes the more direct and simple route. I do believe that God has inspired and preserved his Word and I do believe it can simply be found in the Textus Receptus and faithful translations thereof.......

2. I find it disingenuous (possibly even hypocritical) that those who claim the KJV doesn't need some updating due to language evolution over the last 400 years happily sit under preaching that constantly does word studies in order to "explain" the true meaning of the passage so that the "common man" sitting under their preaching can understand God's Word. Seems to me this is precisely what the RCC did with the Latin Bibles for years in order to control the people and place the priesthood in dominance over the people. I hope none on this board are in that type of situation, but I've seen it in churches by the multitude.

[Annie]

Any time you claim there is a contradiction in scripture you are rejecting it. I don't recall which particular verses but I have seen you do this several times. If it is need full I can look through your posts and point out an example.

I still don't understand how I'm "rejecting" Scripture. What I am doing in pointing out contradictions is merely observing that, due to those contradictions, we can't call any one version "infallible." Does that mean that that translation does not contain the preserved words of God? Hardly. Does that mean that I throw it out the window and don't obey the teachings of Christ? Not at all. Does it mean that I panic because it shows that God's words are not all preserved in one volume? Of course not. If you are saying that I reject the notion that the KJV is a perfect preservation of all of God's words, and only God's words, then you are correct. But I'm not rejecting God's words.

You said in a different thread:

"In our Bibles, we have multiple references to every important Christian doctrine and manner of life. God didn't limit Himself to just one statement about salvation, or about moral behavior, or about prayer. This repetition protects us from copies and translations that have minor errors in them. Our faith doesn't have to be shaken over minor contradictions in a certain text."

The quote you pulled from the other thread does not communicate the idea you say it does. What it does say is that we don't have to panic that great truths have been lost in Scripture just because we find scribal errors in the same book. It doesn't address identifying and analyzing a scribal error.

I never said he did. If I believed that I probably would be a ruckmanite. I believe God has preserved his word in many places, but I also believe, IF a bible is the preserved word of God, it is error free.

So, then, you are not KJVO(?)...Your terminology is interesting to me. I can see that you differentiate between versions that contain God's preserved words, and ones that are composed of nothing but God's perfectly preserved words. But what you have left out here is your position on this issue. IYO, does such a "perfect" version exist? MUST such a version exist in order for God to have kept his promise to preserve His words? If you answered yes to both questions, what is the scriptural basis for your answers?

I believe I have an excellent grasp of your position. I have known many people with the same position. I wish I was misunderstanding you, but I am quite confident I am not.

I suppose I'm not expressing myself clearly enough. Kevin has been closer to saying what I'm thinking than I have been. All beliefs are based on something. As I've stated, my beliefs about preservation are based on what God has clearly said--not human reasoning at all. God has never said that "preservation" means "all His words gathered together in one place"; He just hasn't. I'm not depending on human reasoning to come to this conclusion; I'm merely taking God at His Word, not adding "human reasoning" into the picture by adding things like, "Well, what would be the point unless..." or whatever else. It is the KJVO's who inject human reasoning at that foundational point, ironically adding to God's words, an action which is in all other cases anathema to them.

[Guest Guest]

I'm not entirely sure what Free Presbyterians believe since I haven't done a lot of research about them' date=' personally. Thank you very much for your encouraging words, though. I appreciate it. I do hope that God uses me in a great way for Him wherever He wants me to do it. And your pastor is right, it's impossible to know another person's heart, which is why I tend to try and worry about myself and let God worry about others. Thanks for the post.[/quote']


You're welcome. :thumb My brothers used to call me when I was a kid--- "The little girl who wants to SAVE the world." My first desire in life was to be a wife and a mother with lots of children. If that didn't happen, I wanted to help Mother Teresa of Calcutta, India. My dad forbid his daughter to go live in a 3rd World country (he wanted me at home.) Then, the Peace Corps came up. LOL. Needless to say, that didn't go over too well with my dad, either. God always has a plan as we know. I got a B.S. in teaching from Kent State University, then---my teaching career began. Truly, though, my heart aches for all the UNSAVED of this world---and, I know it is in God's hands. I suppose I should worry more about myself. BTW, "I have been called everything from one of those bleeding heart liberals to a right-wing Zealot." Nothing is further from the truth. I am awaiting the glorious return of Our Lord Jesus Christ---and---Jesus is my HERO!

BTW, what led you to Korea besides Christ? If I may ask?

[Annie]

Actually' date=' all you have shown is that you are not willing to accept ANY Bible translation. You are your own authority, not the Bible. You pick and choose what manuscripts or Bibles and Bible passages you will accept.[/quote']

Jerry, wouldn't you have to agree that you too have "picked and chosen" what manuscripts, Bible, and Bible passages you will accept? You have picked and chosen the KJV/TR only. I don't understand how what you are doing is any different than what I'm doing. Please explain.



Did He? Has His Word been available forever (at all times) to His people? Can you show that it has? I won't argue with Scripture.



Assuming God has promised this, why would my "wading through" multiple manuscripts (that are AVAILABLE--your key word) be an indication that God has not kept this promise?



You know, Jerry, since I don't believe God ever said that He would perfectly preserve every one of His words in one and only one location, I don't stress out that I might not "know" where every single one of His words are, down to the last jot and tittle. Believing that God has preserved His Word, and not knowing the exact location of every single one of those words are not two conflicting concepts. It is manifestly obvious when you compare various versions what the foundational doctrines and practical instructions for Christian living are. It is amazing to me that, in over 5500 different manuscripts (none of which agree completely with any other mss), even the most "significant" variants don't affect any major Christian doctrine or instruction for life. Now, that's preservation if ever I've seen it! In short, I don't have to accept that a translation contains nothing but God's exact words, and only God's exact words, for me to embrace it, teach it, and live by it. Simple comparisons to other translations reveal that there is much more agreement between (more reliable) versions than disagreement...and that the disagreements are not earth shattering in the least.

[Guest Guest]

My pastor always says that "we can ever know what is in a person's heart---because we don't even know what is in our own."

I am glad you caught my typo---"we can never know what is in a person's heart---because we don't even know what is in own own." :lol:

[Guest Guest]

Couple of thoughts......

1. While I think I understand some arguments concerning studying a variety of Bibles to make certain there is a preponderance of agreement, I find Annie's ascertain that God has scattered his Word all over the place and we must play a game of hide and seek (my interpretation of what she said, not her words) in order to find it and understand it to be much more complex and far fetched than I can muster faith to believe. I've always believed (since salvation came to me) that God knows how sinful and ignorant we are as a people and that God always takes the more direct and simple route. I do believe that God has inspired and preserved his Word and I do believe it can simply be found in the Textus Receptus and faithful translations thereof.......

2. I find it disingenuous (possibly even hypocritical) that those who claim the KJV doesn't need some updating due to language evolution over the last 400 years happily sit under preaching that constantly does word studies in order to "explain" the true meaning of the passage so that the "common man" sitting under their preaching can understand God's Word. Seems to me this is precisely what the RCC did with the Latin Bibles for years in order to control the people and place the priesthood in dominance over the people. I hope none on this board are in that type of situation, but I've seen it in churches by the multitude.

Hi trc. :smile This whole thing was discussed about two weeks ago---and, the thread finally went to THREAD HEAVEN. You will have to get Jerry, Pastorj, gosh I can't even think of all who was involved in that discussion, to explain and reason this out with you. If they have the energy to do so. :lol:

[Annie]

1. While I think I understand some arguments concerning studying a variety of Bibles to make certain there is a preponderance of agreement' date=' I find Annie's ascertain that God has scattered his Word all over the place and we must play a game of hide and seek ([b']my interpretation of what she said, not her words) in order to find it and understand it to be much more complex and far fetched than I can muster faith to believe.

Trc123, you nailed it in the portion I bolded above. Your other words come much closer to expressing my position: "studying a variety of Bibles to make certain there is a preponderance of agreement." I would word it this way, though: since it is obvious that there is so much agreement among certain versions/manuscripts on the foundational Christian doctrines and practical instruction, why do we think there HAS to be a "perfect" copy of all of God's words and nothing but His exact words in order to be able to know Him and obey Him? Such a thing has certainly not (to my knowledge) been promised by God.

I've always believed (since salvation came to me) that God knows how sinful and ignorant we are as a people and that God always takes the more direct and simple route. I do believe that God has inspired and preserved his Word and I do believe it can simply be found in the Textus Receptus and faithful translations thereof.......

I believe this is yet another example of a belief that is based not on Scripture, but on human reasoning...SINCE God knows our frailty...and SINCE He always takes the more direct and simple route (He does???)...THEN He MUST have preserved all of His words in just one location. IMO, this not only is poor human reasoning with a faulty premise, but also finds no support in Scripture.

2. I find it disingenuous (possibly even hypocritical) that those who claim the KJV doesn't need some updating due to language evolution over the last 400 years happily sit under preaching that constantly does word studies in order to "explain" the true meaning of the passage so that the "common man" sitting under their preaching can understand God's Word. Seems to me this is precisely what the RCC did with the Latin Bibles for years in order to control the people and place the priesthood in dominance over the people. I hope none on this board are in that type of situation, but I've seen it in churches by the multitude.

Good point.

[Guest Guest]

[Guest Guest]

Seth, I really don't blame you, brother. It is like a "war zone" in here. :lol:

[kevinmiller]

Well, in 2004, a group of Korean Christians came to America on a vision trip with one of their primary purposes being to learn about homeschooling. We decided to host a group of five people overnight so they could see a day of homeschooling from our family. While we were all around the table one evening, the pastor who had come mentioned that he wanted his daughter to stay in America and learn English. Even though it was totally out of character for my dad to do anything spontaneous, he invited her to stay for several months. She did and as a result of that visit and of her being at our house, I became intensely and unexplainably interested in her home country.

She started teaching me Korean while she was here and I was finding any and every website I could on Korea. I really couldn't get enough of it and not much has changed since. I got confirmation from God from Hebrews 11:8-11 and when I visited for three weeks in 2005, I knew that it was where I was supposed to be. It's really kind of amazing how it all happened and since that first student four years ago, we've had her here three times and four other students at various times since then. Her parents have also become my adopted parents when I'm in Korea and have done a lot to help me pursue my goals there. My Korean friends have become some of my closest friends and they are daily praying for me and my future. It's really become my home in many ways. :smile

[Revelation3:20]

Did He? Has His Word been available forever (at all times) to His people? Can you show that it has? I won't argue with Scripture.

"Deuteronomy 30:11-14 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it."

"Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;"

"Psalm 105:8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations."

"Isaiah 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever."

"1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."

"1 Peter 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."

[Guest Guest]

Well, in 2004, a group of Korean Christians came to America on a vision trip with one of their primary purposes being to learn about homeschooling. We decided to host a group of five people overnight so they could see a day of homeschooling from our family. While we were all around the table one evening, the pastor who had come mentioned that he wanted his daughter to stay in America and learn English. Even though it was totally out of character for my dad to do anything spontaneous, he invited her to stay for several months. She did and as a result of that visit and of her being at our house, I became intensely and unexplainably interested in her home country.

She started teaching me Korean while she was here and I was finding any and every website I could on Korea. I really couldn't get enough of it and not much has changed since. I got confirmation from God from Hebrews 11:8-11 and when I visited for three weeks in 2005, I knew that it was where I was supposed to be. It's really kind of amazing how it all happened and since that first student four years ago, we've had her here three times and four other students at various times since then. Her parents have also become my adopted parents when I'm in Korea and have done a lot to help me pursue my goals there. My Korean friends have become some of my closest friends and they are daily praying for me and my future. It's really become my home in many ways.

That is an unbelievably amasing testimony---of course, our testimonies for Christ are always on-going. This post brought tears to my eyes. I wish I would have known this earlier, Kevin---while we were discussing things that really didn't matter. :frog BTW, you remind me somehow (I can't explain it though) of my second-oldest brother. We are very much alike in many ways and often times we "argue over absolutely nothing at all." Bob, my brother, just admitted last week that he is very sensative like myself. Aaaw. He is like you, though, as to not concerning himself with other people b/c he says he doesn't have enough time to even get "caught up" with his own life. The RCC has always been a second-home for him. He escaped there. LOL. His beautiful wife, however, has Baptist roots. Her dad passed on when she was 6---and, I think that is when the family fell apart. Her mom never remarried, and raised two young girls on her own.. She is seeking, though, and cannot understand the RCC. They were married in her beautiful Baptist church in Youngstown, OH. I pray for both of them. You know what I mean?

[Guest Guest]

"Deuteronomy 30:11-14 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it."

"Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;"

"Psalm 105:8 He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations."

"Isaiah 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever."

"1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."


Thank you, Revelation.

"1 Peter 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."