Paul, Chosen of the Lord Jesus as the 12th Apostle.

[No Nicolaitans]

Bartholomew.

[Alan]

9 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Nor were most of the other apostles that the Lord had chosen...who do we see performing signs, miracles, and wonders? Peter is named. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any others...except Paul...yet the Bible clearly says that "the apostles" did. Of which, Matthias was included, numbered, and named.

I beg to differ with you. The Lord Jesus clearly gave even Judas Iscariot the power to heal.

Permit me to quote a passage or two from Matthew 10: 4-8, "Simon the Caananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give." The Lord Jesus gave all of the twelve disciples, apostles, the power to heal in order to authenicate their message; this included Judas Iscariot.

The Lord gave Judas Iscariot the power to heal is also confirmed in Mark 3:14-19 "And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils. ... And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into an house." Mark 3:14, 15 and 19 

[No Nicolaitans]

My dearest Bro. Allen, with all humility, I will remind you that you said the apostle would be observable as having performed signs.Nowhere are specific signs attributed to specific apostles other than a few. The majority are simply attributed to...the apostles...which encompasses all of them. The scriptures are indeed the final authority, and on them I rest. 

I, in no way dispute Paul's apostleship, nor do I dispute Bartholomew's, Thomas', nor Matthias'...despite the fact that they aren't named apart from "the apostles" as having performed signs.

With that, I will stop the back and forth. In all humbleness. I bid you good evening, and I pray the Lord gives you a wonderful day.

Respectfully,

Dan

[Alan]

Brethren,

There are only 12 Apostles and Paul was the 12th Apostle to replace Judas Iscariot. My original postings declaring to all that there are only 12 foundations, one for each Apostle chosen by the Lord Jesus, and 12 thrones for each of the 12 apostles chosen by the Lord Jesus has been totally ignored. As far as I am concerned, that settles the matter.

 

As I have tried to answer all of the other questions (which has been difficult as they are coming like rain from the skies), and the above scriptures are ignored. In fact, most of my answers have been ignored or 'pooh-poohed,' (see the dictionary if you do not the meaning of pooh-pooh).

 

My reference to the prophecy in Psalm 109:8, the words of the Lord Jesus in Matthew 19:28, the words of Paul the Apostle in Galatians 1:1, Acts 19:10-18 and 2 Corinthians 11:13 has been ignored.

 

I proved to Genevanpreacher that this study of mine did not originate with me. Genevanpreacher just ignored my quotation from a respected IFB Bible expositor (Oliver B. Greene), and never did admit his error. I do not expect an apology from Genevanpreacher. Except for fastjav390, the reference to Oliver Greene, and his excellent observation, was ignored.

Why is the excellent exposition of Oliver B. Greene being ignored? 

 

If Matthias is the 12th Apostle, or James, or Bartholomew, or Barnabas, or all of the saints, than the Lord Jesus cannot count past twelve and His words are just idle words. If there are more than 12 apostles than the Preterists are correct and they are not literal, but they are figurative, have a spiritual meaning, or a symbol for whatever any saint want them to represent. 

 

If all of the saints are 'apostles' like Genevanpreacher stated, than the Charismatics, the Mormons, the Catholics, and other brethren, are correct and the IFB Movement is incorrect. Think about what I just said and let it soak in.

 

Conclusion,

I explained the study on Paul the Apostle as the 12th Apostle to replace Judas Iscariot, more than adequately, in my estimation. My study on Galatians 1:1, Acts 19:10-18, and Matthew 19:28,  have been ignored and I have been berated enough. If any of the brethren want to discuss, sincerely, and without pre-conceived ideas, the above mentioned verses, than I will gladly do so.

 

Alan

 

Brethren,

My above posting (on my original posting where I mentioned the verse I posted were being ignored), was posted, evidently, as NoNicolaitans was posting his.

6 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

With that, I will stop the back and forth. In all humbleness. I bid you good evening, and I pray the Lord gives you a wonderful day.

Thank you. I will step back also and bid all a good evening.

Alan

Edited January 31, 2017 by Alan
spelling

[Rebecca]

Matthew 10:2-4: Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Mark 3:14-19 : And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach, And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils: And Simon he surnamed Peter; And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder: And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite, And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him.

Luke 6:13-16 : And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles; Simon, (whom he also named Peter,) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.

All the 12 chosen apostles were given power to heal and cast out devils, including Judas Iscariot. We may not know what each of the individuals did to fulfill this requirement, but they all did, as scripture recorded in several places.

Paul certainly does fulfill the requirements needed to be an apostle, and the fact that he was one is not in question. The question of whether or not he replaced Judas Iscariot as the official 12th apostle is the problem. I think part of the problem is that the words "disciple" and "apostle" are often used interchangeably, even in scripture (Luke 9:1), and also the fact that a few of the men went by differing names depending on who was writing about them. Jesus had vast amounts of people following him, many of whom are named in scripture. They were called His disciples. Out of those disciples Jesus chose 12 special men, which Jesus named "apostles", giving them special powers of healing and casting out of devils, and personally teaching them many things they would need to know after Jesus had left.

So the question is, if anyone from the NT who followed Jesus, cast out unclean spirits, and healed the sick could be an apostle, who are the specific twelve names spoken of in Revelation 21:14? " And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." Surely it's not Judas Iscariot, I'm sure we can all agree on that. So who is the twelfth man? Matthias? Paul? Someone else from left field? Maybe there was no human replacement and it's the Lamb Himself: Hebrews 3:1 "Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus" ;) Probably not, but it would stop the back-and-forth! :D

 

Personally, I'm of the persuasion that Paul was the 12th apostle, replacing Judas Iscariot. :)

 

Edited January 31, 2017 by Rebecca

[weary warrior]

1Co 13:8  Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

1Co 13:9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

1Co 13:10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

 

I know that I will likely stand alone on this, but it's ok. It is not a subject that will cause my blood pressure to rise either way. Just an academic discussion. But I believe that the passage in Corinthians shows us that as the scripture became completed (that which is perfect is come) then the signs that the Jews required (that which was in part) went away.

 

This verse has always fascinated me regarding the subject ... 2Ti 4:20  Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick.

Paul wrote 2Timothy not too long before his execution. He was old and tired and at the end of his life. Chronologically, it is possible this was one of the last books written before Revelations. I don't know, but there is textual evidence supporting the possibility. Timothy had to "drink no more water for thine often infirmities." No one to heal him. So why did Paul leave Trophies at Miletum when he was too sick to travel? Why didn't he heal him? There is no definite answer, and I do not pretend to have one, though some on here will probably be quick to pontificate over it, but if the signs such as prophesies, tongues and wonders were for confirmation until God's inspired word arrived, then it is reasonable to assume that these signs would dissipate and leave. The work of God would not, but the signs and proofs would. "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin". So if a "sent one" is still sent, but does not show the miraculous signs that Alan referred to, does this mean there are no more "sent ones"? If we have people saved and filled with the Spirit without the sign of tongues, would we not have apostles without the miracle signs as well. Personally, I think we usually call them "missionaries". 

 

[John Young]

Jesus, by Name, was ordained as God's Apostle. Jesus only ordained 13 Apostles, which by His mouth expelled Judas from the office as the son of Perdition and then by His mouth later ordained Paul. The NT Jerusalem Church ordained Apostles to fulfill particular head offices. They were Apostles ordained of the Church and not of Christ directly. Their offices were also limited in scope and authority by the Jerusalem Church. Christ did appoint other seventy also but they were not called apostles nor by name and "the twelve" were always noted separately. 

We all can agree that Mathias was given Judas's office by the CHURCH but the Lamb called Paul by name, not Matthias or any other. Revelation says the twelve are the LAMB's apostles not the church's. These twelve are unique to Christ alone. Regardless of who else is called an apostle, even by the Jerusalem church.

Notice here in Paul's letters he makes it clear that he is an Apostle appointed by Christ and when speaking about the foundations he does not distance his Apostleship at all.

2 Corinthians 11:5 For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.

2 Corinthians 12:11-13 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing. 12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. 13 For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except it be that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong.

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:.....2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 that at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 and that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 and came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 for through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 in whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Edited January 31, 2017 by John Young

[Genevanpreacher]

Alan,

I did not reference Bro. Green because he is a man, and not the word of God.

That's all.

I care not for some 20th century mans opinion. Respected or not.

 

[Alan]

Brethren,

I do want to thank those who have been blessed by the study and have liked it.

Hope you enjoy the benediction song, Ship Ahoy! It is sung by Brother Lonnie Moore, at the July 26, 2010 Sword of the Lord Conference, held at Gospel Light Baptist Church.

May God richly bless all of you.

Alan

 

[No Nicolaitans]

Alan, my apologies for spelling your name wrong on several occasions. I have a good friend named Allen (yes, his first name is spelled that way).

[Alan]

No Nicolaitans,

I noticed the wrong spelling of my name before, but, I had decided not to mention it.

Also, I am glad to know that I remind you of your friend. To me that is a compliment.

Brethren,

Also, just for the record, Oliver B. Greene's last name is spelled, 'Greene,' not, 'Green.'

For those brethren who are interested in reading good Bible exposition books, sermon books, tracts, and good audio tapes, I heartedly recommend Bro. Greene's materials. Most of his books can be found in most used Christian bookstores. Here is the link to the website for Bro. Green's materials, The Gospel Hour: http://www.thegospelhour.org/

May the Lord bless all of you.

[fastjav390]

18 hours ago, Alan said:

fastjav390,

 

Are not the scriptures the final authority?   

Alan

 

 

They should be. It seems your whole argument starts off on the wrong foot by trying prove Paul wasn't the "13th apostle" but one of the twelve since there can't be more than twelve apostles. If you run the word through a lexicon you'll find there are more than twelve apostles and the calling depends on being personally with the Lord from the beginning of his ministry. Paul was the exception and this is why he had to argue for his apostleship many times.  Paul was the exception to the rulebut  because he spent nine years with the Lord down in Arabia receiving a revelation from the Lord he qualified. 

There's nothing to suggest that Matthias was not an apostle after Peter and the other apostles drew lots on him (something similar to the Urim and Thummim I assume). In fact, when Luke (Paul's traveling companion) continues to mention the apostles thereafter there's no doubt Matthias was included in the lot. Even Apollos is mentioned in a list of apostles and he only knew of John's baptism until Paul reached him.

I don't believe the issue is that much of a big deal as long as no one gets suckered into believing there are apostles today or believing in apostolic churches (Catholic, Church of God, etc) and ministries.

Also, be careful you don't find yourself trying to hard to come up with a new teaching or doctrine that maybe no one else has ever noticed before. 

 

Edited January 31, 2017 by fastjav390

[Alan]

16 hours ago, John Young said:

Jesus, by Name, was ordained as God's Apostle. Jesus only ordained 13 Apostles, which by His mouth expelled Judas from the office as the son of Perdition and then by His mouth later ordained Paul. The NT Jerusalem Church ordained Apostles to fulfill particular head offices. They were Apostles ordained of the Church and not of Christ directly. Their offices were also limited in scope and authority by the Jerusalem Church. Christ did appoint other seventy also but they were not called apostles nor by name and "the twelve" were always noted separately. 

We all can agree that Mathias was given Judas's office by the CHURCH but the Lamb called Paul by name, not Matthias or any other. Revelation says the twelve are the LAMB's apostles not the church's. These twelve are unique to Christ alone. Regardless of who else is called an apostle, even by the Jerusalem church.

Notice here in Paul's letters he makes it clear that he is an Apostle appointed by Christ and when speaking about the foundations he does not distance his Apostleship at all.

2 Corinthians 11:5 For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.

2 Corinthians 12:11-13 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing. 12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. 13 For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except it be that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong.

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:.....2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 that at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 and that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 and came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 for through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 in whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

John Young,

Thank you for your expostion of the scriptures. I also do appreciate how you stayed on the original intent of this thread. As I clearly stated, and was ignored, the apostle who replaced Judas Iscariot was in fulfillment of Psalm 109:8

I also want to thank you for bringing Ephesians 2:20 to our attention. "And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone." Ephesians 2:20

As with the doctrine of the character, mission, words, and commandments, of the Lord Jesus, the chief cornerstone of the church, we should know who is the apostle that the Lord Jesus verbally chose to replace the office of apostleship of Judas Iscariot.

The knowledge of the apostle who replaced Judas Iscariot, as part of the foundation of the church, was the intent of this thread. Paul is clearly the replacement of the office of Judas Iscariot in fulfillment of Psalm 109:8, "Let his days be few; and another take his office."

Again, I want to thank you for your welcomed expostion of scripture. It was a breath of fresh air.

Alan  

Edited February 1, 2017 by Alan
deleted repetitive phrase

[Genevanpreacher]

As for the silly idea that the 12 apostles were not led by the Holy Spirit before pentecost - the Lord Jesus gave'm him - well, here, once again let God tell us - in John 20 -

21  Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22  And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:"

And as stated before, the actual English word means 'sent for a particular reason', then we all are apostles. For who would deny that the 'great commission' is not for us all?

19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

And that is a direct quote from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ himself. 

Not Bro. Greene.

Nor Alan.

But as some here would deny even these things for a private interpretation, I guess we could just throw those verses out too.

 

 

 

[Alan]

Genevanpreacher,

You are twisting the words of the Lord Jesus in an effort to defend your own personal interpretation of the scriptures. 

Too claim that since all have the Holy Spirit and since all are given the Great Commision in effect makes us all apostles, in my opinon, is heresy.

The Lord Jesus verbally called Paul as the Apostle to replace the office of Judas Iscariot in order to fulfill Psalm 109:8

Alan 

Edited February 1, 2017 by Alan
grammer