Music in Church

[Bro. Diego]

Bro. Diego,

You are the product of some very narrowly focus'd and revisionist history of Baptists. You make some very bold and super confident claims that you are unable to support with Scripture. Please go back to the Psalms, and come back with your hands raised unto the LORD.

No, no. YOur wrong I make 3 esential arguments when you answer them then we can see if i am a "very narrowly focus'd and revisionist history of Baptists".

1- What does rasing hands in the OT means. (please don't tell me you do something with out knowing the meaning)
2- What was the "worship" in the Tabernacle and the temple in the OT.
3- What instruments where played or used at the Tabernacle and the Temple in the OT.

That is why I say, that sometimes we say the BIble doesn't say anything against but we don't take time to stop and analyze the verses.

Now in other hand, i can tell you I can hold historiccly what i said, by some reason it is called CONTEMPORARY, NEW, MODERN, ETC, ETC, ETC.
Or maybe you are right Christ started raising his hands and sining and crying and clapping ni middle of the synagogue, please! Don;t try to accuse me of something which is your preference. Or maybe Spurgeon in 1650, Spurgeon in 1850, or Huss in 1390, or Wycliff, or Patrick, etc. etc, etc. maybe they where at church there jumping, and rasing there hands and doing all those emotional things.
Hmmmm. so now who is the "very narrowly focus'd and revisionist history of Baptists"

[kevinmiller]

I don't know of any Baptists that go back 1900 years. lol
But who really cares what Baptists have done? I mean, come on, for a denomination claiming to put the Bible first, I see a lot of reliance on what Baptists have done historically, as if that's more important than searching it out in Scripture for oneself.

You mention the OT and being in the temple and in the tabernacle. But, when they met in the tabernacle, they couldn't go directly to God either. They also had a lot of ritual and sacrifices. I'd say that our services today are a LOT different than OT Judaism. I can guarantee they didn't have pianos in the tabernacle. :frog

Music is one form of worship. Worship takes place inwardly but can have multiple manifestations and we can manifest it in worship. I would also suggest going to the book of Psalms and reading through it.

Psalm 66:4 All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name.

Hand-raising in praise:
Psalm 63:4 Thus will I bless thee while I live: I will lift up my hands in thy name.

Psalm 134:2 Lift up your hands in the sanctuary, and bless the LORD.(notice the bold)

Dancing in praise:
Psalm 149:3 Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.

Psalm 150:4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.

[Bro. Diego]

I don't know of any Baptists that go back 1900 years. lol
But who really cares what Baptists have done? I mean, come on, for a denomination claiming to put the Bible first, I see a lot of reliance on what Baptists have done historically, as if that's more important than searching it out in Scripture for oneself.

You mention the OT and being in the temple and in the tabernacle. But, when they met in the tabernacle, they couldn't go directly to God either. They also had a lot of ritual and sacrifices. I'd say that our services today are a LOT different than OT Judaism. I can guarantee they didn't have pianos in the tabernacle. :frog

Music is one form of worship. Worship takes place inwardly but can have multiple manifestations and we can manifest it in worship. I would also suggest going to the book of Psalms and reading through it.

Psalm 66:4 All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name.

Hand-raising in praise:
Psalm 63:4 Thus will I bless thee while I live: I will lift up my hands in thy name.

Psalm 134:2 Lift up your hands in the sanctuary, and bless the LORD.(notice the bold)

Dancing in praise:
Psalm 149:3 Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.

Psalm 150:4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.

you didn't answer tough.
PLus history is good always that doesn't go against the Word of God.

All those verses and I repeat the question if that really mean to "dance", lift hands and all that in the temple or tabernacle, did they do it? No they didn't! Have yoiu ever heard a jew ceremony? Well you ll see how far from that it is, Those verses are out of the context and there real meaning. Now it is also important what church has done for 2000 years, since Christ built his church. I ask again: Has church been wrong for 1900 years? You know that is impossible to proove that there was Huss, or Wycliffe or Spurgeon doing thatm, because it was not teached to church to do it! noT EVEN jews did that in the temple or the tabernacle! NONE! intresting! So just to write psalms 150 would be out of the context.

[kevinmiller]

I'm sorry Bro. Diego, but I have to say that your posts are a picture of poor debating.

All those verses and I repeat the question if that really mean to "dance", lift hands and all that in the temple or tabernacle, did they do it? No they didn't!

Psalm 134:2 Lift up your hands in the sanctuary, and bless the LORD.(notice the bold)
I guess you didn't "notice the bold." Yup, that's pretty clear. Do you want me to do a word search on what sanctuary means?
Not to mention....we aren't bound to a building any longer. People can meet in one another's houses and have their fellowship there. It happened all the time in the NT.

Have yoiu ever heard a jew ceremony?

Do you not eat pork, too? I mean, do you think that Judaism and Christianity is the same? What happened to Christ and the NT?

Those verses are out of the context and there real meaning.

Talk is cheap. If they're out of context, put them in context or don't make the accusation. Those verses are crystal clear.

Now it is also important what church has done for 2000 years, since Christ built his church. I ask again: Has church been wrong for 1900 years? You know that is impossible to proove that there was Huss, or Wycliffe or Spurgeon doing thatm, because it was not teached to church to do it! noT EVEN jews did that in the temple or the tabernacle! NONE! intresting! So just to write psalms 150 would be out of the context.

So here is where we get to the heart of the issue. You make a lot of hot air arguments just so we can come to the conclusion that it's more important to look at what Spurgeon and Huss did than to go directly to Scripture. I think it's a shame and rather disturbing that you would take history and make the Bible conform to it. "This is how it was historically so that chapter must be out of context." That is exactly what the Roman Catholic Church does. I'll say it again, it's disturbing that you would take Scripture so lightly.

[Guest Guest]

I'd say that our services today are a LOT different than OT Judaism. I can guarantee they didn't have pianos in the tabernacle.

Music is one form of worship. Worship takes place inwardly but can have multiple manifestations and we can manifest it in worship. I would also suggest going to the book of Psalms and reading through it.

Psalm 66:4 All the earth shall worship thee, and shall sing unto thee; they shall sing to thy name.

Hand-raising in praise:
Psalm 63:4 Thus will I bless thee while I live: I will lift up my hands in thy name.

Psalm 134:2 Lift up your hands in the sanctuary, and bless the LORD.(notice the bold)

Dancing in praise:
Psalm 149:3 Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.

Psalm 150:4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.

Kevin. It reminds me of the RCC celebrating the Eucharist. The word, Eucharist means, Thanksgiving. However, it is a "spiritual" Thanksgiving NOT "sacrificial". All sacrifices ended in the OT before Christ. John 6, and Acts 15 clears up any misconceptions for Catholics who want to learn the truth. Study the truth of the scriptures. Not what some man has said, ie.... a famous IFB pastor with a good reputation. Not all good men of God can back up what they say with scripture. They leave many seeking more truth.

[Guest Guest]

What does rasing hands in the OT means. (please don't tell me you do something with out knowing the meaning)

During prayer is the most common biblical example of lifting up the hands to God, but there is no reason it can't be done during music IF the heart is right and IF the music is glorifying to God.

In the scriptures, authority and power is often symbolically passed through the hands. Thus we see throughout the scriptures the laying on of hands to give a blessing, pass authority, etc. It is also why even to this day when the president of the USA is sworn in they must place one hand on th bible and lift the other up in the air while swearing. By that they are swearing on the authority of the scriptures and on the authority of the person of God himself. That was as serious of an oath as our founders knew how to make. Raising your hands to God is expressing that you are passing or submitting your "authority"(your own will, attitudes, etc.) to him. That is what is it is holy about it and why it it can be a good thing if done in the proper spirit or a wicked thing if done out of a impure heart as shown in this verse:

"Isaiah 1:15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood."

The symbolical passing of power through the hands is not limited to any particular biblical period. In the scriptures we see: Abraham, Israel(Jacob), Moses, David, Jesus Christ, Paul, etc. all either doing it or recommending it. You can't limit it to one period of time, and you can't discount it. To many biblical examples of to many believers(as well as Christ himself) lifting their hands to God to show submission to him or placing their hands on others to pass power or blessing to them. :wink

[Bro. Diego]

Intresting, intresting.

There is a quote that says that once you can't answer something or yoiu don't have an argument then you attack the person.

So I am not surprised of some words.

By another way seems like a manipulation of verses to use it in your preference, hmm.
Something else that I have mention several times calls my attention that the ones who are always in pro of the charismatic practices to get in Baptist Churches are the same ones... sooo...

I see you can't answer the question. And with things that are facts that are true then you come with ... like a Catholic and blah, blah, because you are just avoiding to answer what is a fact.

Kevin, candlelight and the other one (I can't remeber the name) Here is the issue, I think you guys are manipulating the BIble and then avoiding the facts.

PLease, be honest at least you think Jesus would be there raising hands, crying and doing those charsmiatical practices?????? Because if then maybe we have a different Jesus. I have a Jesus who is solid, spirit adn truth.

Its just silly trying to compare me with Catholics, its funny what modern Baptist could say.

[trc123]

Intresting, intresting.

There is a quote that says that once you can't answer something or yoiu don't have an argument then you attack the person.

So I am not surprised of some words.

By another way seems like a manipulation of verses to use it in your preference, hmm.
Something else that I have mention several times calls my attention that the ones who are always in pro of the charismatic practices to get in Baptist Churches are the same ones... sooo...

I see you can't answer the question. And with things that are facts that are true then you come with ... like a Catholic and blah, blah, because you are just avoiding to answer what is a fact.

Kevin, candlelight and the other one (I can't remeber the name) Here is the issue, I think you guys are manipulating the BIble and then avoiding the facts.

PLease, be honest at least you think Jesus would be there raising hands, crying and doing those charsmiatical practices?????? Because if then maybe we have a different Jesus. I have a Jesus who is solid, spirit adn truth.

Its just silly trying to compare me with Catholics, its funny what modern Baptist could say.

My friend, your statements and arguments really have me chuckling and laughing. Then I have to stop because you really are being serious. You complain that Kevin is using Scripture wrongly; BUT at least he's using Scripture. You haven't given any Scripture to buttress your claim that raising hands to the LORD during worship and/or prayer is wrong and should not be done.

[kevinmiller]

lol, I have to agree with TRC on this one. It would be funny if you weren't so serious. If you provided even a shred of evidence then maybe, just maybe, you could accuse me of not answering you. The only person here who is avoiding answering is you. You are not showing the slightest bit of respect to the Bible by completely disregarding it in this discussion.

[Guest Guest]

PLease, be honest at least you think Jesus would be there raising hands, crying and doing those charsmiatical practices?????? Because if then maybe we have a different Jesus. I have a Jesus who is solid, spirit adn truth.

I sense that is your real problem with hand raising. You seem to be under the impression that it is a "charismatic thing". Biblical hand raising isn't a "charismatic thing" any more than the Holy Spirit is a "charismatic thing". The charismatics are prone to abuse the proper use of hand raising and turn it into a outlet for the flesh but that doesn't mean that hand raising is unbiblical and to be avoided any more than their mis-attributing of things like tongues(or what they call tongues rather) to the Holy Ghost means we should avoid speaking of the Holy Spirit.


Address the real problem, the charismatics common abuse of hand raising, but hand raising IS biblical and you can't deny it.

[zealyouthguy]

I sense that is your real problem with hand raising. You seem to be under the impression that it is a "charismatic thing". Biblical hand raising isn't a "charismatic thing" any more than the Holy Spirit is a "charismatic thing". The charismatics are prone to abuse the proper use of hand raising and turn it into a outlet for the flesh but that doesn't mean that hand raising is unbiblical and to be avoided any more than their mis-attributing of things like tongues(or what they call tongues rather) to the Holy Ghost means we should avoid speaking of the Holy Spirit.


Address the real problem, the charismatics common abuse of hand raising, but hand raising IS biblical and you can't deny it.

Good post Seth.

Let me say this though, I know quite a few missionaries on the field and the charismatics are one of the biggest enemies of a true faith that they are facing. Much more so than what we see here in the states. I've had to temper my discussions with these missionaries because, for them, the Charismatic movement is a more a mixture of the cultural norms/habits and a false gospel than it is for most of us here in the states.

That doesn't diminish the biblical support about the raising the hands at all... in fact, it underscores that perhaps we all need to study the word a bit more and make sure we don't major on the minors to the point of calling each other names in the hopes of being most right.

There are plenty of things that the Charismatic movement does that is clearly against scripture, but our reaction should be to what the Bible calls us to and not in direct relation to how other people abuse it.

[Guest Guest]

Let me say this though, I know quite a few missionaries on the field and the charismatics are one of the biggest enemies of a true faith that they are facing. Much more so than what we see here in the states. I've had to temper my discussions with these missionaries because, for them, the Charismatic movement is a more a mixture of the cultural norms/habits and a false gospel than it is for most of us here in the states.

Certainly, I wasn't defending them by any means, they are wrong in how they usually go about it, but it is in what spirit they go about it that is the problem, not hand raising in general. I also understand they are often even worse in other countries, and they are unbiblical enough here, although, like baptists, they cover quite a wide spectrum. From what I have seen they go from those who are very likely saved but are a little messed up in doctrine, to those who are clearly teaching a false gospel.