Music in Church

[futurehope]

Uh-oh. Here we go again....

[futurehope]

Okay, definitions for worldly. The only dictionary I have handy is the one on MS Word and the definitions weren't all that great. The most appropriate for this topic said (basically): Having more interest in the physical world than in the spiritual side of things.

Not the best definition, so I'll try to do better on my own here:

Worldly in the context we are referring would mean something along the lines of in the manner of the world; acting or displaying in the same ways as those who are of the world and not of Christ; of the world.

Let's try this for now. Hopefully I'll remember to check both Webster's and Strong's this evening for a better definition.

[kevinmiller]

Okay, definitions for worldly. The only dictionary I have handy is the one on MS Word and the definitions weren't all that great. The most appropriate for this topic said (basically): Having more interest in the physical world than in the spiritual side of things.

Not the best definition, so I'll try to do better on my own here:

Worldly in the context we are referring would mean something along the lines of in the manner of the world; acting or displaying in the same ways as those who are of the world and not of Christ; of the world.

Let's try this for now. Hopefully I'll remember to check both Webster's and Strong's this evening for a better definition.

Actually, I was hoping for something more along the lines of a Biblical definition. The reason being, any number of things can be after the manner of the world such as using a computer, the clothes we wear, how we take a shower, etc. etc. However, we would need some kind of distinction to say what is wrong and what is not rather than just saying, "oh, that's worldly and, therefore, wrong."

[Guest Guest]

Actually, I was hoping for something more along the lines of a Biblical definition. The reason being, any number of things can be after the manner of the world such as using a computer, the clothes we wear, how we take a shower, etc. etc. However, we would need some kind of distinction to say what is wrong and what is not rather than just saying, "oh, that's worldly and, therefore, wrong."

"James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."

"2 Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. "

"Philippians 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;"

The general line of biblical direction seems to be if there is any question about it being a worldly activity, don't do it. The overriding thread on this topic throughout scripture seems to set a holiness and purity which is above reproach as the standard.

[kevinmiller]

With the world being a picture of a lack of moral standards and those who are without Christ, how do we allow ourselves to become tainted by that lack of morality and sinfulness? Perhaps by allowing sin into our lives or allowing our desires to be influenced by what the world around us is seeking. Any thoughts?

[Guest Guest]

Uh-oh. Here we go again....

Hello...I am just popping in this thread for fun. So we are going one more round tonight? :lol:

[Guest Guest]

"James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."

"2 Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. "

"Philippians 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;"

The general line of biblical direction seems to be if there is any question about it being a worldly activity, don't do it. The overriding thread on this topic throughout scripture seems to set a holiness and purity which is above reproach as the standard.

Then we should not eat at McDonald's, shop at Wal-Mart, buy Gas for our car, drink name brand sodas, drive cars (since we cannot by gas), wear cowboy hats (because you will look just like the unsaved cowboy) etc...

[Guest Guest]

With the world being a picture of a lack of moral standards and those who are without Christ' date=' how do we allow ourselves to become tainted by that lack of morality and sinfulness? Perhaps by allowing sin into our lives or allowing our desires to be influenced by what the world around us is seeking. Any thoughts?[/quote']


"Proverbs 4:14 Enter not into the path of the wicked, and go not in the way of evil men."

"Psalm 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful."

"Proverbs 13:20 He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed."

"Proverbs 28:7 Whoso keepeth the law is a wise son: but he that is a companion of riotous men shameth his father."

"Psalm 26:4 I have not sat with vain persons, neither will I go in with dissemblers."

"Psalm 119:1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD."

These verses show that our lives not to copy the deeds of the wicked, nor are we to keep company with them. Now you might ask, wasn't Jesus a friend of publicans and sinners? Yes he was, and that gets more to the root of it. He was a friend to them, yet he also was:

"Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;"

Particularly notice "separate from sinners", now since scripture mentions that he was a "friend of publicans and sinners" obviously that doesn't mean he was "separate from sinners" in a physical sense, rather, he was completely separate from them morally. I do not believe Jesus dressed like the wicked, he didn't talk like the wicked, nor did he in any way compromise holiness to be "relevant". They believed on him presisely because he was holy and pure, not because he was like them. They knew what they had and it didn't help them, they saw who he was and wanted it. That is often the tragedy of the search for "relevance". The very changes made to gain "relevance" often compromise holiness thus creating a worldly Christianity. True irrelevancy.

[HappyChristian]

"Proverbs 4:14 Enter not into the path of the wicked, and go not in the way of evil men."

"Psalm 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful."

"Proverbs 13:20 He that walketh with wise men shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed."

"Proverbs 28:7 Whoso keepeth the law is a wise son: but he that is a companion of riotous men shameth his father."

"Psalm 26:4 I have not sat with vain persons, neither will I go in with dissemblers."

"Psalm 119:1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD."

These verses show that our lives not to copy the deeds of the wicked, nor are we to keep company with them. Now you might ask, wasn't Jesus a friend of publicans and sinners? Yes he was, and that gets more to the root of it. He was a friend to them, yet he also was:

"Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;"

Particularly notice "separate from sinners", now since scripture mentions that he was a "friend of publicans and sinners" obviously that doesn't mean he was "separate from sinners" in a physical sense, rather, he was completely separate from them morally. I do not believe Jesus dressed like the wicked, he didn't talk like the wicked, nor did he in any way compromise holiness to be "relevant". They believed on him presisely because he was holy and pure, not because he was like them. They knew what they had and it didn't help them, they saw who he was and wanted it. That is often the tragedy of the search for "relevance". The very changes made to gain "relevance" often compromise holiness thus creating a worldly Christianity. True irrelevancy.

Excellent, Seth!!

[futurehope]

Then we should not eat at McDonald's, shop at Wal-Mart, buy Gas for our car, drink name brand sodas, drive cars (since we cannot by gas), wear cowboy hats (because you will look just like the unsaved cowboy) etc...

Why is it that everyone else on this thread has agreed to look at the word for the answers, yet you persist with sarcasm and intentional misinterpretation of other members' posts? Can't we just be respectful of eachother and, more importantly, God's word?

[futurehope]

Wow!! Last nights discussion went well. Great posts seth and kevin alike. I want to throw something else out on the topic of worldliness - and where I think it might apply to music.

I Cor. 8:9
But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

Now the original context of this was talking about the eating of meat (as it was newly allowed under the dispensation of grace) and how some still held to the law and not to give offense to those for the gospel's sake. So, as a matter of witnessing, couldn't listening to or worshipping with music that has been given a "worldly" conotation by some become a stumbling block? For instance, if someone came from a traditional Methodist or Lutheran church with all the congregational readings and hymns and almost ritualistic practices but had never been told about salvation and they visited a church using this "worldly" type of music, could that become a stumbling block to keep them from hearing God's word and His plan of salvation? What are your thoughts?

[Guest Guest]

Why is it that everyone else on this thread has agreed to look at the word for the answers, yet you persist with sarcasm and intentional misinterpretation of other members' posts? Can't we just be respectful of eachother and, more importantly, God's word?

Now, Tank...I think I saw it posted somewhere, that you were going to "try" to work on this. Am I right? Any questions, Tank...and, I will be most happy to answer them if you write me a PM. :frog :thumb Agreed, or not?

[Guest Guest]

Now, Tank...I think I saw it posted somewhere, that you were going to "try" to work on this. Am I right? Any questions, Tank...and, I will be most happy to answer them if you write me a PM. :frog :thumb Agreed, or not?

Well lets see there has already been many scripture verses that point directly to separation from the world. So, if we are to take such a strong stance against CCM in which many of the top artists are born again believers in the Lord Jesus Christ then why do we not stop the other "worldly" activities we all participate in on a daily sometimes minute basis? Some of the CCM artists are new Christians so their music might seem a little worldly. Amazing Grace was written moments after a man came to salvation on a ship! What if he were 18 living in the USA he might of put a modern beat to it with his electric guitar. Tank Mark 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

[futurehope]

Well lets see there has already been many scripture verses that point directly to separation from the world. So, if we are to take such a strong stance against CCM in which many of the top artists are born again believers in the Lord Jesus Christ then why do we not stop the other "worldly" activities we all participate in on a daily sometimes minute basis? Some of the CCM artists are new Christians so their music might seem a little worldly. Amazing Grace was written moments after a man came to salvation on a ship! What if he were 18 living in the USA he might of put a modern beat to it with his electric guitar. Tank Mark 7:15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

I don't think anyone has been able to lump CCM all together yet and give a distinct reason why it should ALL be stood against. There are different forms of "radical christians". Some are radicals claiming to be Christians and some are Christians portrayed to be radical by the world because of their Christianity. These are very different situations and are the same with music. I see you also have chosen to use scripture that refers to eating (if anyone takes the time to read and understand the full context of the parable spoken here, it starts off with the pharisees questioning why the disciples ate without first washing their hands). I think though, in this case, this is not a valid scripture for this discussion as the point that Christ was making was that the "food" we take into our bodies cannot defile us spiritually because it enters into the belly and not the heart. But doesn't music actually enter into the heart?? Also, what are your thoughts on the topic of "stumbling" that I brought up earlier? I also would like to point out the latter part of the parable as far as what "comes out". If a new Christian is having "what appears to be worldly" things (music) come from them, can this not be defiling to them and their testimony? Any thoughts on this anyone?

[bzmomo7]

I don't think anyone has been able to lump CCM all together yet and give a distinct reason why it should ALL be stood against. There are different forms of "radical christians". Some are radicals claiming to be Christians and some are Christians portrayed to be radical by the world because of their Christianity. These are very different situations and are the same with music. I see you also have chosen to use scripture that refers to eating (if anyone takes the time to read and understand the full context of the parable spoken here, it starts off with the pharisees questioning why the disciples ate without first washing their hands). I think though, in this case, this is not a valid scripture for this discussion as the point that Christ was making was that the "food" we take into our bodies cannot defile us spiritually because it enters into the belly and not the heart. But doesn't music actually enter into the heart?? Also, what are your thoughts on the topic of "stumbling" that I brought up earlier? I also would like to point out the latter part of the parable as far as what "comes out". If a new Christian is having "what appears to be worldly" things (music) come from them, can this not be defiling to them and their testimony? Any thoughts on this anyone?

I Cor.15:33 "Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners."