ISIL issues hit list of U.S. churches for holiday attacks

[heartstrings]

Bro, yes there is a long interesting history between our two countries. I will say no more about that other than, in light of that you're in no position to judge us.  But here's an interesting observation for you to ponder: Around the 1st century, Rome was the conquering empire of the day, even rulers of the British Isles, and the supreme ruler and bearer of "the sword" at that time. But even at that, it was apparently legal and sanctioned by the Lord for two of the disciples to carry "swords". Eagles have talons, lions have teeth, even sheep have horns, and Americans are free to keep an bear arms. NO apologies here.

Edited January 6, 2017 by heartstrings

[Invicta]

I grew up in a time when even our police didn't carry guns.  If they were needed thet had to be sanctioned by a very senior officer.  Armed police became more common when we abolished the death penalty.  Today, sad to say, today although we don't have routinely armed police, we have recemtly had armed offivers at Canterbury Cathedral and Bluewater Shopping Centre.  Police have foiled several plots to bomb Bluewater. It may be a point to note that Daesh have been less successful here than the IRA were,. but the IRA were funded from the USA.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Invicta

[Invicta]

I think your ammendment  says you have the right to bear arms.  I have never heard anyone says that it says personal arms.  We have the right to bear arms under the authority of the government. 

1 hour ago, heartstrings said:

Eagles have talons, lions have teeth, even sheep have horns,

As my wife has just remarked.  "That is how God created them, He didn't create men with guns."

[wretched]

I am afraid it is blatantly contradictory to believe that Jesus even excuses, much less condones or encourages or commands violence to any other human being down here for any reason. Quoting OT and 2nd Coming passages have nothing whatsoever to do with you or me living down here, in or out of their context.

There are hundreds of completely ignored passages contained in the Gospels that describes what salvation results in for a true believer, I will only quote a small portion from only the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew with the prayer others may understand:

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Those that are not - won't be there (there is NEVER a middle ground with God)

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Those that are not - won't

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. Those that are not  - won't

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. Those that are not - won't be called that

Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Those that are not or simply refuse to allow any persecution won't see the Kingdom of Heaven

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. When one is born again, they are to want to lose their life in this world and be crucified with Christ. IE. your worldly reputation, your standing in society, your ambitious prosperity, even your family. You are a Christian 24/7 and in all circumstances. So there is not and will not be any time in your remaining physical life where it is OK to not follow these commands.

And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Here is the revealing part you need to study before it is too late. It is all in the context of the Sermon on the Mount.

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?  The Lord clearly states to turn the other cheek. So if your pastor or commentary says you can defend yourself and carry arms; does that match in any way what our Lord says? Of course not and below is what the Lord says about these men (ravening wolves):

Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. The good fruit is the context of this passage which is the Sermon on the Mount.

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. I know most everyone on this site has always been taught that this refers to some chaff like catholics. But that is not the context. The context is referring to many, many IFB pastors I have known over the years.

I recommend caution when declaring your rights to defend yourself, your family and your home. You are supposed to be the salt of the earth. The example of what a Spiritually awakened person is to the world. A product of the Gospel (the real Gospel) not the Lord Lord one. You and I were saved to become the exact opposite of what everyone else is in the world. To swallow our pride and self worth and machismo, pick up the Cross and be crucified with Him.

Noone needs to be taught or encouraged to defend themselves or their homes and families, the natural man knows exactly how to do that and does it by fleshly instinct.  Jesus teaches clearly that His people are to turn their backs on their fleshly instincts and be like Him. Remember the Words of our Lord and do your best to forget the preacher and commentary doctrines you have been raised on.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. The Spirit of Christ is painstakingly revealed to all of us in the Gospels.

And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? (Luke insertion here of the same sermon from our Lord)

We need to all ask ourselves daily whether our new life and the church we attend are built on the ROCK or on sand.

And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

I know many won't like any of this but many need to hear it, me included - every day.

 

 

[Invicta]

Excellent post bro.

[Jim_Alaska]

" As my wife has just remarked.  "That is how God created them, He didn't create men with guns." 

True enough Invicta, but He didn't create them with Bibles either, yet He did give man the ability and knowledge to create the printing press to produce bibles. 

[Invicta]

25 minutes ago, Jim_Alaska said:

" As my wife has just remarked.  "That is how God created them, He didn't create men with guns." 

True enough Invicta, but He didn't create them with Bibles either, yet He did give man the ability and knowledge to create the printing press to produce bibles. 

And He did give them writing to record the scriptures.  Personally I beleive that man was created with a spoken language and a written language, but that is only my point of view.  Yes the printing press was a great gift frm God, it enabled the glorious reformation to spread throughout Europe and the the world.   

In US today there is a report that a shooter killed 5 but that was an hour or so ago and these figures tend to change as the situation becomes clearer.  The perpetrator is in custody, they said.  Several days ago, British police stopped a car and shot and killed a man who they suspected had a gun. who was a front seat passenger and a firearm was found in the car.  The driver was arrested and charged with having a firearm and silencer.  Unless the police can come up with some information that they were threatened with a weapon, one of them is likely to be charged with murder.

Edited January 7, 2017 by Invicta

[Invicta]

Bro Jim.  You will not change my views and I or anyone else are unlikely to change yours. But I thank you all for the discussion.

[swathdiver]

One hundred plus years of socialism has ruined Great Britain and her education system.  It has ruined America too for Christians are the remnant that keeps evil in check via the Holy Ghost.  Fewer and fewer Christians means more and more evil and depravity.

All citizens of America have the right to bear arms.  This is a God given right of self-defense secured by our Constitution.  

[Invicta]

Your God given command is in Matthew  5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

[heartstrings]

Bro.   I have a SWEET little Wife at home who would give you the shirt off her back and she harbors no bitterness toward anyone, even to people who have wronged her. But let someone mess with one of her children or grandchildren and I can assuredly promise you that she'll be like a "she bear robbed of her whelps": know what I'm saying?

[Invicta]

There is an accout in Foxe of a widow who had one son burnt at the stake saying that she would give her other son for the sake of the gospel.

Rev 6:9 ¶  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Do you think any of those martyrs would have died fighting their persecutors.  

Luke 9:23  And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
 

 

[weary warrior]

Invitca, your continued references to Matthew 5 et al is foolishly trying to shoe-horn today's church age into the Kingdom of Heaven. Matthew 5-7 are strictly rules set forth by the future King of the Jews that will apply in his kingdom. It's silly. 

We were born without guns, we were also born without clothes, dishes, cars, phones, heaters, blankets .... on...and on... and on...

The argument you make is usually found to be held strongest and loudest by those who would not have the courage to fight and protect others, even if they were commanded to, so a faux stand on passivity is their best defense of their own .... condition. And I lived for 7 years in an Amish community, so I speak from nauseating experience. 

Europe, the once-mighty birthplace of the Reformation, the Christian founders of America and the King James Bible is gone, and it was shamefully taken without a single shot being fired by the nation of Islam, because it became a continent of helpless, careless, foolish, unarmed sheep. And now all they can do is twist scripture to pathetically excuse their cultural, spiritual, social and political impotence.

[Invicta]

I don't believe thatt he kingdom of heaven is a future kingdom but Christs's Kingdom the small stone cut without hands.

[wretched]

On 1/16/2017 at 0:03 AM, weary warrior said:

Invitca, your continued references to Matthew 5 et al is foolishly trying to shoe-horn today's church age into the Kingdom of Heaven. Matthew 5-7 are strictly rules set forth by the future King of the Jews that will apply in his kingdom. It's silly. 

We were born without guns, we were also born without clothes, dishes, cars, phones, heaters, blankets .... on...and on... and on...

The argument you make is usually found to be held strongest and loudest by those who would not have the courage to fight and protect others, even if they were commanded to, so a faux stand on passivity is their best defense of their own .... condition. And I lived for 7 years in an Amish community, so I speak from nauseating experience. 

Europe, the once-mighty birthplace of the Reformation, the Christian founders of America and the King James Bible is gone, and it was shamefully taken without a single shot being fired by the nation of Islam, because it became a continent of helpless, careless, foolish, unarmed sheep. And now all they can do is twist scripture to pathetically excuse their cultural, spiritual, social and political impotence.

This idea about the Kingdom of Heaven referring only to Jews 2000 years into the future is in-explainable, hyper-dispensational cost counting. It is commentary false doctrine and not Scriptural. I realize you did not come up with it but are teaching it just the same. The Kingdom of Heaven and God are used interchangeably across all 4 Gospels. One parable in Matthew says Heaven the same parable in Luke says God. That alone is enough to dismiss this fantasy. But the fact that our Lord preached this firstly to all His present day disciples to be preached by them and so on until the end of the world marks this teaching as false completely.

The Words of Christ are the results of saving faith but mean little to anyone who counts the costs of Scriptural salvation. Please study Luke 14:26-35

The only Gospel is what Christ preached. A false gospel is one that substitutes repentance with a quick prayer followed by constant assurance of salvation because they said the words, then lists of do and don't for christians after being talked into a prayer, then fed a list of what you can keep of the world in your life a what you cannot keep of the world in your life. That gospel (so prevalent in even IFB churches) is not the real Gospel.

Any gospel other than Christ's Gospel is a false Gospel. And there exists only one Gospel message in Scripture. In these last days, other gospels have transformed the true Gospel preached by our Lord and commanded by Him to be preached to all future believers into a false religion of mental ascent and new religious law. These rules never come close to a crucified life in which a believer actually leaves their care for this world behind and follows Him in every aspect of life. This false Gospel not only condones worldly ambition, it encourages gain as Godliness; it encourages natural instincts like self defense, carrying firearms and participation in worldly temporal pass-times, hobbies and sports. None of which have anything whatsoever to do with following Christ or eternal reward.  The desire to move on unto perfection is the fruit of saving faith and the Spirit. It takes growth and learning but the message should always be in the heart of the true believer and they strive the rest of their lives to this perfection. Please prayerfully consider what hell for eternity truly is and if you do you may understand better what Christ's saves us from. Christ's words will make much more sense to you. It should also prove that nothing temporal in this world should be any concern to us

At worst these false teachers are tares/goats and will hear "I never knew you" which is certainly in the context of our Lord's sermon. At best these false teachers will be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

They want fire insurance of course but they count the costs and it is very clear anyone who doesn't desire and strive to surrender all is counting the costs. Doesn't mean we will succeed, even the most sanctified will fail more than succeed, but we will constantly and prayerfully strive to be like HIM. And most importantly, we won't teach others not to be.

On 1/16/2017 at 0:03 AM, weary warrior said:

The argument you make is usually found to be held strongest and loudest by those who would not have the courage to fight and protect others, even if they were commanded to, so a faux stand on passivity is their best defense of their own .... condition. And I lived for 7 years in an Amish community, so I speak from nauseating experience. 

 

This is the saddest statement of all my friend. Do you realize you are calling our Lord a coward? He preached this the loudest and strongest of all. And lived it and then commanded we live it and preach it. The mark of a true coward is one who worries over what others think of them in this life and not what the Lord thinks of them. They are scared to be crucified with Christ. They are scared to be truly different from the world (it is ok with the world to be religious but never ok to be a Disciple of Christ). They are scared to be despised and ridiculed of men for the Kingdom of Heaven's sake. They worry over the world, their self worth, their toys and trinkets, their worldly image to others and reputation, their money and pleasing their wives and children with worldly things, pressing their children to worldly goals and ambitions. Sure they follow the rules given to them after constant reassurance of salvation to attend 3 times a week, read a couple of chapters a day, pray for a few minutes before work and tithe. They love their new cozy religion once they get the rules down pat and are now used to living that way. That is the exact opposite of what Christ preached. In reality it is the condemnation Christ preached against the pharisees. It is little more than a self satisfying, part time religion.

Of course, self defense was only a small part of Christ's preaching and only the tip of the iceberg.

The true believer should want to grow and should want to see that they have no self satisfying future in this life which is but a vapor and our only testing ground for God to see if you truly believe and are not simply a "hearer of the Word" only.

And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. Oh but they are still in church following religious rules fed to them by wolves.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.

It is my prayer that all will see the difference between the true Gospel and that typical easy prayerism gospel so prevalent today everywhere including IFB churches.

Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?