The Rapture cannot take place at the end of the 7 year tribulation period

[Genevanpreacher]

12 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Except that the singular sentence of Jeremiah 30:8-9 begins with the statement, "For it shall come to pass in that day."  As such, this statement grammatically encompasses the entirety of this singular sentence; and as such, all of the events that are prophesied in this singular sentence must all occur "in that day," that is -- in the same singular time-period.  Yet even you acknowledge that the prophetic elements of Jeremiah 30:9 have not been fulfilled even unto this very day.

Even so, if the prophetic elements of Jeremiah 30:8 were fulfilled "in that day," the prophetic elements of Jeremiah 30:9 were not fulfilled "in that day," then the prophecy of Jeremiah 30:8-9 was not fulfilled precisely as given.  If indeed the prophecy of Jeremiah 30:8-9 was not fulfilled precisely as given, then according to the truth of Deuteronomy 18:22 (which is the very verse that you quoted above), the Jeremiah 30:8-9 is a falsehood and not from the Lord.

I do disagree with your premise that the phrase "For it shall come to pass in that day" has anything to do with the 'timing' of "But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them."

What will happen in that day is - "I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds".

THEN in later time  - "they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them."

You will notice the colon at the end of verse 8 does not exist in the 1611 original printing, but a period, thus cancelling out your 'singular sentence' idea.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Genevanpreacher

[Konstantin]

18 hours ago, John Young said:

Lots of things the people of the past saw did not come to pass in their lifetime or near future, yet they testified of them anyway. Some things rightfully applied to current, future, and far distant future events simultaneously. For example, Enoch prophesying of the coming of Christ in judgement had a partial application to the people before the flood, then again spoken of by Moses had application to the giving of the law, however, it's completed fulfillment is in the future event of Christ coming physically to earth.

“¶ And it shall come to passe that euery one that is left of all the nations which came against Ierusalem, shall euen goe vp from yeere to yeere to worship the King the Lord of hostes, and to keepe the feast of Tabernacles.”(Zech.14:16)

It will be the feast of Tabernacles in the Millennium.

 Two other feasts of the ceremonial law will already be in the past.

 These three feasts indicate three raptures.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

16 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

I do disagree with your premise that the phrase "For it shall come to pass in that day" has anything to do with the 'timing' of "But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them."

What will happen in that day is - "I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds".

THEN in later time  - "they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them."

You will notice the colon at the end of verse 8 does not exist in the 1611 original printing, but a period, thus cancelling out your 'singular sentence' idea.

Indeed, you are correct that the King James translation of 1611 had a period at the end of Jeremiah 30:8.  However, the adversative conjunction "but" at the beginning of Jeremiah 30:9 still grammatically indicates that Jeremiah 30:9 is directly connected to Jeremiah 30:8.  Furthermore, within the passage there is only one (not two) timing indicators, that being the phrase "in that day."  The other timing indicator that you added ("THEN in later time") is just that -- something that you yourself added to the Scriptures.  It is NOT actually found anywhere therein.  Yes, I know -- You referenced the future tense verbs of Jeremiah 30:9 as the evidence for this addition on your part.  However, Jeremiah 30:8 also uses the same future tense verbs -- "For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him."  Thus the future tense verbs of Jeremiah 30:9 do NOT move the events of that verse anywhere beyond the future tense verbs of Jeremiah 30:8.  "That day" was future to Jeremiah's proclamation of the Lord's prophetic utterance; and all of the events mentioned in that prophetic utterance "shall come to pass in that day" (from the perspective of Jeremiah).  It is all future to Jeremiah, but it all would occur in the same period of time.  Adding a time indicator that is not present in the Scriptural text is not appropriate in rightly dividing God's Holy Word of truth.  Precision matters in Bible study; and in this case Scripture only precisely communicates one time indicator -- "in that day."

[Genevanpreacher]

7 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Indeed, you are correct that the King James translation of 1611 had a period at the end of Jeremiah 30:8.  However, the adversative conjunction "but" at the beginning of Jeremiah 30:9 still grammatically indicates that Jeremiah 30:9 is directly connected to Jeremiah 30:8.  Furthermore, within the passage there is only one (not two) timing indicators, that being the phrase "in that day."  The other timing indicator that you added ("THEN in later time") is just that -- something that you yourself added to the Scriptures.  It is NOT actually found anywhere therein.  Yes, I know -- You referenced the future tense verbs of Jeremiah 30:9 as the evidence for this addition on your part.  However, Jeremiah 30:8 also uses the same future tense verbs -- "For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him."  Thus the future tense verbs of Jeremiah 30:9 do NOT move the events of that verse anywhere beyond the future tense verbs of Jeremiah 30:8.  "That day" was future to Jeremiah's proclamation of the Lord's prophetic utterance; and all of the events mentioned in that prophetic utterance "shall come to pass in that day" (from the perspective of Jeremiah).  It is all future to Jeremiah, but it all would occur in the same period of time.  Adding a time indicator that is not present in the Scriptural text is not appropriate in rightly dividing God's Holy Word of truth.  Precision matters in Bible study; and in this case Scripture only precisely communicates one time indicator -- "in that day."

I understand. I disagree of course, but I do understand where you are coming from.

So in the verse where it says "and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him." - are you saying that - 'in that day' - this occurs also? It seems to me that that is an impossibility for such a thing to occur in the same timeline as the rest. Thus making it also a 'future' thing in that verse. Because it would take time for them to not 'serve themselves of him'.

In your comment here - "Precision matters in Bible study; and in this case Scripture only precisely communicates one time indicator -- "in that day." - I totally disagree as to your 'boundaries'. Yes precision matters, and that is why I state what I do, because it is, to me, very obvious that there are different times here. It goes with the same thing with the Lord telling Adam that "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" and saying that both things 'happen' on the same day, which they didn't. Obviously I don't believe in the 'spirit death' that most teach, so I see two times here - the day he ate, and later in time the day he died. It's the same with this set of verses - there are things that happen 'in that day' and there are things that happen as a result of that day, later.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

3 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

I understand. I disagree of course, but I do understand where you are coming from.

Brother "Genevanpreacher,"

Although you have firmly indicated your disagreement with me in this matter, your answer was presented with grace.  I wish, first of all, to commend you and thank you for this.

3 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

So in the verse where it says "and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him." - are you saying that - 'in that day' - this occurs also? It seems to me that that is an impossibility for such a thing to occur in the same timeline as the rest. Thus making it also a 'future' thing in that verse. Because it would take time for them to not 'serve themselves of him'

Yes, I am indicating in my position that all of the prophetic elements in Jeremiah 30:8-9 shall occur "in that day."  Jeremiah 30:7 speaks concerning "the time of Jacob's trouble."  (It is interesting to me that they are called "Jacob" herein, not "Israel.")  Yet Jeremiah 30:7 concludes with the prophetic truth that Israel "shall be saved out of it."  Jeremiah 30:8-9 then reveals what will occur "in that day" when Israel shall be saved out their time of trouble, as follows:

1.  The Lord will break "his yoke" from off Israel's neck, and will burst Israel's bonds.

2.  Stranger (foreign nations) "shall no more serve themselves" out of Israel.

3.  Israel "shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king," whom the Lord "will raise up unto them."

If indeed this prophecy is to be fulfilled at the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (which, I believe, you would reject), then all of these things can occur immediately together through the absolute authority of Jesus Christ as King of kings and Lord of lords.

3 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

In your comment here - "Precision matters in Bible study; and in this case Scripture only precisely communicates one time indicator -- "in that day." - I totally disagree as to your 'boundaries'. Yes precision matters, and that is why I state what I do, because it is, to me, very obvious that there are different times here. It goes with the same thing with the Lord telling Adam that "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" and saying that both things 'happen' on the same day, which they didn't. Obviously I don't believe in the 'spirit death' that most teach, so I see two times here - the day he ate, and later in time the day he died. It's the same with this set of verses - there are things that happen 'in that day' and there are things that happen as a result of that day, later.

I myself hold that Adam and Eve did pass from life unto death immediately upon their disobedience against God, for in that very moment they became spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins."  However, that would a discussion for a different thread, yes?

[Genevanpreacher]

1 minute ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother "Genevanpreacher,"

Although you have firmly indicated your disagreement with me in this matter, your answer was presented with grace.  I wish, first of all, to commend you and thank you for this. My pleasure.

Yes, I am indicating in my position that all of the prophetic elements in Jeremiah 30:8-9 shall occur "in that day."  Jeremiah 30:7 speaks concerning "the time of Jacob's trouble."  (It is interesting to me that they are called "Jacob" herein, not "Israel.")  Yet Jeremiah 30:7 concludes with the prophetic truth that Israel "shall be saved out of it."  Jeremiah 30:8-9 then reveals what will occur "in that day" when Israel shall be saved out their time of trouble, as follows:

1.  The Lord will break "his yoke" from off Israel's neck, and will burst Israel's bonds.

2.  Stranger (foreign nations) "shall no more serve themselves" out of Israel.

3.  Israel "shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king," whom the Lord "will raise up unto them."

If indeed this prophecy is to be fulfilled at the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (which, I believe, you would reject), then all of these things can occur immediately together through the absolute authority of Jesus Christ as King of kings and Lord of lords.

I myself hold that Adam and Eve did pass from life unto death immediately upon their disobedience against God, for in that very moment they became spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins."  However, that would a discussion for a different thread, yes? Yes, it would be an interesting talk I am sure.

 

[Particular Baptist]

On September 4, 2016 at 10:02 PM, Jordan Kurecki said:

Daniel 9:24 KJV
[24] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

so please tell me when did God bring on everlasting righteousness into Jerusalem? And when was the most holy anointed? These have obviously never been fulfilled. Stop spiritualizing away the literal plain meaning of scripture. 

Anyone reading revelation honestly can clearly see the second half of the 7 years described in the following verse:

Revelation 12:5-6 KJV
[5] And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. [6] And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

...this seems to correspond to the second half of this verse:

Daniel 9:26-27 KJV
[26] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. [27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

And please don't try to say that the "he" vs 27 is the Messiah of vs 26..the "he" of vs 27 grammatically is the "prince of the people" 

It astounds one cannot see the fact the prophecy quoted in the Apocalypse corresponds to Osee chapter eleven, the prophecy given Christ will go and return from Egypt in 1260 days or three years.

Since am not a dispensationalist or millennarian, I'll just sit back. Some realized millenarians hold to a three-year or seven-year tribulation, but are the minority. Nevertheless, it does make one chuckle that essentially the same premillennial proponents argue about the timing of a tribulation they cannot concur how long it is in duration. The middle of the tribulation period was espoused by a Baptist in the 1750s. Essentially, each postion is the same dispensational take on premillennarianism.

 

Edited September 8, 2016 by Particular Baptist

[MountainChristian]

On 6/4/2016 at 0:20 PM, Jordan Kurecki said:

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

With "his" being the Son of man, which is how Jesus referred to himself, what persons or peoples did Jesus choose?

All the tribes of the earth would include the descendants of Israel. Why are Israelis mourning if they are his elect? 

Why are the Angels gathering his elect in the winds? Why are the Angels gathering his elect in Heaven? Why doesn't it say "of earth"?

 

[Ukulelemike]

1 hour ago, MountainChristian said:

With "his" being the Son of man, which is how Jesus referred to himself, what persons or peoples did Jesus choose?

All the tribes of the earth would include the descendants of Israel. Why are Israelis mourning if they are his elect? 

Why are the Angels gathering his elect in the winds? Why are the Angels gathering his elect in Heaven? Why doesn't it say "of earth"?

 

"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." Zechariah 12:10.

Israel mourns because when they see Him return, they realize they have, to this point, rejected their Messiah. The others mourn because, probably, they finally realize how much trouble they're in. Why 'from heaven? Well, perhaps poetic language-why four winds? Both representing from all over, wherever they may be.   

[MountainChristian]

6 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." Zechariah 12:10.

Israel mourns because when they see Him return, they realize they have, to this point, rejected their Messiah. The others mourn because, probably, they finally realize how much trouble they're in. Why 'from heaven? Well, perhaps poetic language-why four winds? Both representing from all over, wherever they may be.   

That's another verse that confuses me. 

I might start a new thread for this verse, I do not want to hijack brother Jordan's thread.

 

 

[Konstantin]

13 hours ago, MountainChristian said:

Why are the Angels gathering his elect in Heaven? Why doesn't it say "of earth"?

“Bride” ( “faithfull” (Rev.17: 14) will already be in” her closet” (Joel.2: 16), when the Lord “shall send his Angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his Elect from the foure windes” (Matt.24: 31) Here,” his Elect” are “called, & chosen” (Rev.17: 14)(KJV1611). "Bride" will already be in Heaven,because “a sheafe of the first fruits”(Lev.23:10) have already brought, but “called, & chosen” will yet be on earth, “ because the haruest is come.” (Mark.4:29). It is "the end of barley haruest, and of wheat haruest”(Ruth.2:23)

[MountainChristian]

14 minutes ago, Konstantin said:

“Bride” ( “faithfull” (Rev.17: 14) will already be in” her closet” (Joel.2: 16), when the Lord “shall send his Angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his Elect from the foure windes” (Matt.24: 31) Here,” his Elect” are “called, & chosen” (Rev.17: 14)(KJV1611). "Bride" will already be in Heaven,because “a sheafe of the first fruits”(Lev.23:10) have already brought, but “called, & chosen” will yet be on earth, “ because the haruest is come.” (Mark.4:29). It is "the end of barley haruest, and of wheat haruest”(Ruth.2:23)

 

 

I would like to disagree.

I too have been taught the rapture is the first fruits but numbers prove this to be wrong.

The rapture is the harvest.

A. All the old Testament age believers who are dead.

B. All the new Testament age believers who are dead.

C. All the new Testament believers currently alive.

A+B+C will out number the Jews saved in the last days. In fact A will out number the Jews of the last days, B will out number the Jews of the days, and even C with the current age falling away we too out number the Jews of the last days. So we see A+B+C is a number so large it is the harvest. 

In old time farming lingo, the Jews will be the gleaning. Numbers so small its what the gleaners will pick up. 

 

[Konstantin]

8 hours ago, MountainChristian said:

I would like to disagree.

I too have been taught the rapture is the first fruits but numbers prove this to be wrong.

The rapture is the harvest.

A. All the old Testament age believers who are dead.

B. All the new Testament age believers who are dead.

C. All the new Testament believers currently alive.

A+B+C will out number the Jews saved in the last days. In fact A will out number the Jews of the last days, B will out number the Jews of the days, and even C with the current age falling away we too out number the Jews of the last days. So we see A+B+C is a number so large it is the harvest. 

In old time farming lingo, the Jews will be the gleaning. Numbers so small its what the gleaners will pick up. 

These are letters.

Numbers are here:

“ ¶ Thrice in the yeere shall all your men children appeare before the Lord God, the God of Israel.”(Ex.34:23)(KJV)

1.” a sheafe of the first fruits” (Lev.23:10).These are Church of the first borne (Heb.12:23);”faithfull”(Rev.17:14);1Thess.4:15-17

2. “vnto the end of barley haruest, and of wheat haruest”(Ruth.2:23);” two waue-loaues”(lev.23:17).These are “called, & chosen”(Rev.17:14)

3. there will also be “the feast of ingathering at the yeeres end”.(Ex.34:22)(at the and Millennial Kingdom)

These indicate three rapture. One of them will take place at the end of the 7 year tribulation period.

 

Edited September 9, 2016 by Konstantin

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Hmmm. I believe that the position of "first fruits" in relation to "the resurrection of life" has already been taken by our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, as per 2 Corinthians 15:20-24 -- "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."  Indeed, I believe that I shall accept God's Holy Word as inspired by God's Holy Spirit on the matter over anyone else's word on the matter.

 

[Konstantin]

Let's consider other inverse images pointing to these events.

let the bridegroome goe forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.(Joel.2:16) she is the only one of her mother (Song.6:9) the virgins her companions that followe her, shall be brought vnto thee. (Ps.45:14)

Who is “the bride” and who are “the virgins” here?