Debating Calvinism (James White vs. Dave Hunt on John 6:37-4

[speerjp1]

Did you not post support from Dave Hunt? Surely, that isn't Scripture. I have provided Scriptural support in the video, yet, you haven't engaged the topic at hand, but rather attacked Calvinism, without actually providing any evidence.

I suggested Dave Hunt's book for reading, not as evidence in support of Biblical salvation. The Bible is sufficient.

Calvinists that I've debated in the past have all left the Bible and quoted Calvin and his followers above the Bible in the end.

I have addressed this topic in the fashion I have on purpose to make a point. I've given "tit for tat" short answers to which you've responded likewise. That is what every debate on Calvinism turns into. I figured I'd just start it out that way and get it over with. :lol

I personally don't really care to debate Calvinism again (unless absolutely necessary.) There is a thread where the passage you're questioning has been answered, but you do not accept the answer. This tells me that you believe what you believe and are not willing to accept the Bible without the slant of Calvin.

Have a good day. :thumb

[Willo]

If any Calvinist takes the words of man over the Words of Scripture, then I would contend that they are not true Calvinists. All true Calvinists will hold to, and adhere to Sola Scriptura.

Now, in the other thread on "Drawn by the Father" I used Scripture to support my claim, but neither you or anyone else who attack Reformed Theology was able to answer John 6:37 without causing a contradiction within the Bible. I guess the real reason "Calvinism" is still around today, and hasn't been defeated is because it is the correct exegesis of Scripture. :smile

Also, you set up a straw man. When did I interpret the Scripture in the light of Calvin? To be perfectly honest with you, I have only ever read a couple of short articles by John Calvin, and that was on the Holiness of God. So how have I interpreted the text of John 6 in the light of Calvin's teachings? Once again, we see you making statements without actually providing any evidence to support the claims.

[heartstrings]

Calvinism, "sovereign grace", or "reformed theology" is a wicked misrepresentation of the righteous, holy character of God. It is a lie of the Devil, friend, because it misrepresents God as a self centered monster who created people specifically for the purpose of frying in Hell for His own twisted pleasure and glory. The real Jesus will save anyone who calls on Him in faith and He doesn't want anyone to go to Hell. (2 Peter 3:9) It is one thing to seek for truth, put people who consistently push false doctrine are walking on very dangerous ground.

[orvals]

Hello Willo,

I would ask what bible college are you attending and what is their affiliation with Calvinism?

Orvals

[matie-k]

Hello Willo,

I would ask what bible college are you attending and what is their affiliation with Calvinism?

Orvals

This isn't my debate, but what difference does that make? Why not just take a man for the words he speaks instead of looking for what box to put him in?

[Willo]

Calvinism' date=' "sovereign grace", or "reformed theology" is a wicked misrepresentation of the righteous, holy character of God. It is a lie of the Devil, friend, because it misrepresents God as a self centered monster who created people specifically for the purpose of frying in Hell for His own twisted pleasure and glory. The real Jesus will save anyone who calls on Him in faith and He doesn't want anyone to go to Hell. (2 Peter 3:9) It is one thing to seek for truth, put people who consistently push false doctrine are walking on very dangerous ground.[/quote']

2 Peter 3:9, maybe you could explain to me the context of that verse, and who is the "us" it is addressing, and maybe you could explain who the epistle is talking to.

[Willo]

Hello Willo,

I would ask what bible college are you attending and what is their affiliation with Calvinism?

Orvals

I attend Malyon College (Queensland Baptist College of Ministries) it has NO affiliation with Calvinism, actually Reformed theology is taught as error at the college. Plus, the question of what college I attend has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

[Willo]

Calvinism' date=' "sovereign grace", or "reformed theology" is a wicked misrepresentation of the righteous, holy character of God. It is a lie of the Devil, friend, because it misrepresents God as a self centered monster who created people specifically for the purpose of frying in Hell for His own twisted pleasure and glory. The real Jesus will save anyone who calls on Him in faith and He doesn't want anyone to go to Hell. (2 Peter 3:9) It is one thing to seek for truth, put people who consistently push false doctrine are walking on very dangerous ground.[/quote']

Also, since you are making an attacking without providing any scriptural support, could you please explain to me, what your interpretation of Romans 9 is, and could you explain how in that passage the Bible says God made some for wrath.

[heartstrings]

The epistle was written to ALL Believers.....

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

But chapter 2 deals with false teachers and Chapter 3 deals with scoffers. ....



2 peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
The context of chapter 3 is the "coming of the Lord" and it deals with those who scoff at it. But God wants everyone, including these scoffers, to believe and repent.


By using the word "us", Peter included himself did he not? But wasn't Peter already sealed by the Holy Sprit, saved, and on his way to Heaven, when he wrote this? Are Believers in danger of "perishing" if they do not "come to repentence"....seeing as they have already "come to repentence"? No. The words "us", "any", and "all" is refering to all humanity.

[Rob Hughes]

Hi heartstrings

You said this...

The words "us", "any", and "all" is refering to all humanity.

Consider these verses.

John 12:19 says, "The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? Behold, the world is gone after him."

Mark 1:5 says, "And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins."

1 John 5:19 says, "... the whole world lieth in wickedness."

Here are some questions. Did the whole world follow after Christ? Did everyone from Judea go out to be baptised by John? Does the "whole world" mean everybody? The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually.

You need to be consistent my friend. In Biblical Greek there are figures of speech just like we use figures of speech today. The word "all" does not always mean "all." You have made a sweeping statement that lacks support. We can look at 2 Peter 3:9 and know that we must understand who the "all" is first, before we come to a conclusion. In addition to this, it is clear that 1 Peter is addressed to the elect. 2 Peter is addressed to "...them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ." Who is the "them?" It is the elect because the "them" has obtained like precious faith with us [the elect].

My friend, Calvinism is the correct exposition of Scripture. If you want to debunk Calvinism then you have to start where Calvinism begins: Total Depravity. Since you cannot debunk Total Depravity you cannot debunk Calvinism. The following applies to all born again believes... We are elect because we are totally depraved and wicked and therefore cannot "elect" ourselves. We are the ones Christ died for on the cross since no man can contribute anything to his salvation (because we are dead in sin, i.e. dead to God) and therefore had Christ died for all, all would be saved. The grace of God is irresistible, i.e. it is not able to be resisted or successfully opposed. This is because man is spiritually dead (the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked). God, who is spirit, does lovingly and graciously regenerate and make alive all of His elect who are born dead in their sins. Man does not resist the sovereign saving grace of God because he cannot resist the sovereign saving grace of God. God secures our perseverance, as opposed to the belief that our perseverance secures our salvation. This is obvious since we are saved by grace through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast.

Scripture tells us that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father who sent Him draws him. But Scripture also tells us that if we do not come we are to be blamed. You cannot harmonise these, else you risk destroying both. Scripture teaches both, therefore we must teach both.

God bless,
Rob

[orvals]

Hello again Willo,

Actually your answer to the question tells me quite a bit. You were not indoctrinated with Calvinism at your school therefore you have either read some books and have been carried away with what you read or you have been proselyted (which is the normal way Calvinist?s gain their followers). It would seem to me that you are defending what you do not even understand completely.

The Calvinist assumes that every passage that speaks of the elect, or chosen or predestined or all those that you gave me are speaking of those "chosen from the foundation of the world". But the truth is their conclusion is based on a belief that is not clearly taught in scripture for if you believe that your election is for ordained then that is what you read into the scriptures.

The Calvinist can not even defend their own position of total depravity with out adding that the soul is regenerated prior to salvation or else the sinner could not respond to the Gospel. Please show me where regeneration occurs prior to salvation?

God can do all things because He is truly sovereign but because he can and has exercised His sovereignty in the past does not mean that all men and women are predestined to accept or deny the offer of Salvation.

It would seem that the Calvinist is really much closer to the Gnostic for the Calvinist worships (in part) enlightenment or knowledge which allows them to claim they have the answers and others who are not quite so enlightened are just ignorant of the truth. So be it. I am still studying Calvinism because I am totally convinced they are wrong and I certainly do not have all the answers (I don't even have all the questions) but the scriptures do. There are more than enough verses to convince me Calvinism is way off base beginning with total depravity. How did Adam and Eve know they feared God and not the boogie man? Where does the notion of worship come from? Why are we told that the heavens declare the handiwork of God if we can not respond to God? Why does the bible say come unto me, whosever will, the bride says come and the Spirit says come if we have no free will to respond?

I have never spoken with a Calvinist that did not tell me that I do not understand Calvinism and yet virtually all of them believe something different. Two point, three point, four point, five point I even met a six point Calvinist once the bottom line is even they realize that they cannot support their views scripturally therefore they have to invent words and new meanings to try and make the clear teaching of scripture obscure.

Enjoy your stance but don't forget that sooner or later you will have to choose between what you believe is truth and what the scriptures teach is truth.

orvals

[Willo]

G'day!

I have seen your replies, but I won't be able to respond for a few days due to college and ministry work. But to those who have posed questions, I will reply. Just give me a few days.

In Christ

Willo