The Tithe, for the Church or not?

[wretched]

41 minutes ago, Critical Mass said:

Seems like the heard of the issue is driven by semantics and whether a pastor has the right to put a guilt trip on Christians for being tight wads.

Sure buddy, easy for you to say. Nobody taxes Godzilla without representation.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

43 minutes ago, Critical Mass said:

Seems like the heard of the issue is driven by semantics and whether a pastor has the right to put a guilt trip on Christians for being tight wads.

Pastors have no right to put guilt trips on snyone for not tithing.

It is not a matter of semantics at all.  It is a matter of adhering to what the Word of God says concerning God's holy tithe.

Just as calling a bicycle a Harley Davidson doesn't make it a Harley Davidson, so also, telling people that God's holy tithe is monetary doesn't make it so.

God defined in His Word what His holy tithe was to consist of, who was required to tithe, where the tithe was to be observed, when the tithe was to be observed, and to whom the tithe was to be given.  The last place it is mentioned in the Bible, it is still to be given to the sons of Levi, and is still to be agricultural.  .  Preachers have no right to teach others that it is something other than what God said it was to be, who was required to tithe, where they were to tithe, when they were to tithe, and to whom they were to tithe to.

The monetary tithe requirement doctrine is totally foreign to the Word of God.

Then Peter and the other Apostles answered and said, "We ought to obey God rather than men." Acts 5:29

 

 

 

[Invicta]

12 hours ago, Critical Mass said:

Seems like the heard of the issue is driven by semantics and whether a pastor has the right to put a guilt trip on Christians for being tight wads.

Alan forgive me if I misunderstand your first post.  You say the Grace position is correct, which I take to freely giving,, but later seem to say that tithes are required, can you tell me which is correct?

I did know a pastor who said we should give tithes and offerings on top of that..  ??????

A friend went to a church about 25 miles from here and he said the preacher once said he wouldn't preach until  he had £2.000 and that God had told him eight people would give him £250 each.  It seemed he soon got that amount. They didn't pass round a plate but credit card readers.

We have freewill giving.  We have a box on the wall at each side of the rear of the church.We don't expect visitors or unsaved to contribute to our church.  We believe that it is for the members to support the church and its ministries.

 

[Ukulelemike]

If anyone should guilt tightwads into giving, it needs to be God. Pastors ought to preach the blessings of giving, as well as outlining the needs associated with having a church house and ministry costs. If people choose not to partake in the care of those thing, then they are free to do without. I learned this-it seems that anytime I spoke at all about the monetary needs of the church ministries and building, giving would decrease. Consequently, we lost our building, and many of our ministries, to boot. And of course, with that we lost some members, no longer satisfied with meeting in a rented hall where we can't do potlucks or such things, or have a kids' Sunday school, having naught but one single room to work in. Our numbers are quite down, but as long as a few are there, we will carry on.

So the members DO have a responsibility to give, if they want to comfort and convenience of a steady place to meet, but if they choose not to, then it can go away, and if they don't like that, and weren't willing to participate, then they can go away, too.  

[Invicta]

How does a pastor know how much anyone gives? Many of our members give cheques,  Others pay directly into the bank by electronic transfer. In the first instance only the two people who count and check the offering will know, and they are not always the same two.  In the latter case, I as treasurer am the only one who knows and I don't tell anyone. 

[Standing Firm In Christ]

R B Oullette asks his Staff for the names of the best givers.  He then calls on those givers to testify of the Lord's goodness whenever he wants to drun up finances.

 

Totally wrong.

[Invicta]

If the pastor (or anyone else) asks how much anyone gives I would say it is none of their business.  I'd probably be quite a bit more polite than that,.Anyway we don't have "Staff." we work for the Lord, not for man.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Invicta

[Ukulelemike]

Sadly, some, perhaps many churches use what people give, or don't give, as justification to help them or not help them when they are in a financial difficulty. Sadly, the Bible nowhere supports this idea-one of the jobs of the (local) church is to help their members, believers, in times of trouble. There are no other qualifications given: if a man is a brother, (and I would say reliably verifiable because of being a member, so they are not just some guy who walks up and says "I'm a Christian, give me money), and they are in a difficult bind, a church, as able, should give to help them. Not if they won't work, for if they won't work, they should not eat, but if we CAN help the brethren, we should help the brethren.

As for feeding the poor, ie, the lost of the world, this is not actually a purpose of the church, though a church CAN, if the membership is predisposed to and it is not wasting the Lord's money, and maybe its part of a wider ministry with the gospel in mind, but just to throw food or money to whoever just because its a nice thing to do, is not biblical. If individual believers want to, that is fine as well.

Sorry, got off track, so carry on.

[mkrishna]

I remember when I was part of the international church of Christ cult in 1997, they kept track of how much each gave. I was a college student then working part-time in the campus library. One day, the one who mentored me came to me and said there was a complaint from the campus minister that I gave different amounts each week. I told him that is because I make different amounts each week. He said I need to be consistent in my giving.

[Ukulelemike]

The Mormons will come a-knocking at your door if your giving lapses. I think there may be some IFB's who will, also.

[wretched]

56 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said:

As for feeding the poor, ie, the lost of the world, this is not actually a purpose of the church, though a church CAN, if the membership is predisposed to and it is not wasting the Lord's money, and maybe its part of a wider ministry with the gospel in mind, but just to throw food or money to whoever just because its a nice thing to do, is not biblical. If individual believers want to, that is fine as well.

 

Oh, I believe we should be giving to all poor, our brethren first and the lost poor as we witness: It is indeed Scriptural:

James 2:14, What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
    15, If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
    16, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
    17, Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Mat 19:21, Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Mar 10:21, Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

 Luk 18:22, Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

 Rom 15:26, For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

Gal 2:10, Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

 Jam 2:5, Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?3
    Jam 2:6, But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

What isn't Scriptural is being taxed to maintain OVER administered non profit corporations

Edited November 25, 2015 by wretched

[Alan]

On ‎2015‎年‎11‎月‎22‎日‎ ‎下午‎, Alan said:

The Grace position is correct. The father of our faith, Abraham, before the Law, was saved by grace and tithed by grace: Genesis 14:17-24 Abraham gave  to the man of God, Mehchizedek, tithes of all the he gained through battle. Abraham loved the Lord God, the man of God, and the work of God. Nobody coerced him to tithe, he titihed on his own volition.

Melchizedek was a type of the Lord Jesus Christ.  The head of the local, New Testament, bible believing Baptist Church, is the Lord Jesus Christ. "For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body." Ephesians 5:23

Invicta,

Here is my original post. It is very obvious that Abraham freely gave a tithe to Melchizedek our of his own volition and not in any response to any law requiring tithes. Abraham purposed in his heart and cheerfully gave. In our day and  age, it is the same.  If a person wants to give a tithe of his money, as Abraham did, than that it is his choice.

For anybody to say, if they want to give a tithe, that giving a tithe of money is unbiblical, than that person has privately interpreted the scripturers.

A tithe is just 10 percent of anything: money, agricultural products, possessions, fruit, etc... If you read the Old Testament very carefully, the Law, you will notice that not in on instance did God say, or allude to, "The tithe is only for agricultural products." For an individual to say so is a deliberate perverting of the word of God. Agricultural products, and the fruit of the land, was in addition to the money paid as a tithe.

Standing firm in Christ is not correct in his interpretation of the widow and her mites, Abraham and in the blanket condemnation of pastors in the independent baptist churches en masse. Standing firm in Christ is also, like a Pharisee, is judging anybody who gives a tithe and offering and has already judged, like the widow and her mites, that they are coerced into giving  by the pastors and are being robbed.

 

 

Edited November 25, 2015 by Alan
spelling

[Standing Firm In Christ]

 And yet, Babylonian and Assyrian history records that tithes were indeed expected to be given to kings centuries before Abram was born and still expected centuries after Abraham died.  Seems to me that the expected war spoil tithes would have also been practiced during Abram's life.

Since Abram came from Ur of the Chaldees, a country in the Babylonian reagion, it would be safe to say that Abram would have been well aware of this expectation of war spoil tithes.  

Contrary to opinion, Abram did NOT tithe his own money in the Genesis 14:16-20 account.  Abram tithed war spoils,... spoils he would not even claim as his own property.

A tithe is NOT "just 10% of anything".  circa 1410 BC, God said His holy tithe was to be agricultural and that man could not do what seemed right in his own eyes.  In AD 66, God's holy tithe was still agricultural.God said His tithe was to be agricultural.  He never amended it to be 10% of anything".

Leviticus 27:30-33 proves beyond a shadow of doubt that  "all" the tithe of the land was agricultural in its content.  Pro-tithe teachers have not produced a single verse from the Word of God where God's commanded tithe to His Tabernacle or to His Temple was in the form of money.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Standing Firm In Christ

[Invicta]

Regarding giving to the poor.  The pastor of a Baptist church I used to go to often had people turning up to church asking for money.  If it was the fare to London, he would say "Meet me at the station in ½ hour and I will buy you a ticket."  If it was for food he would say "Meet me at my house in  ½ hour and my wife will make you some sandwiches.  They never met him.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Invicta

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Chapter 1 of my book, "Will A Man Rob God?: Exposing a Serious Error Taught in the Modern Church"...

 

Conditioned to Believe a Lie

Back in the 1970’s, I worked as an assistant animal trainer with a circus that traveled up and down the East Coast. It always amazed me to watch the elephants swaying back and forth under the sideshow tent. What was to prevent them from running out of the tent and trampling the crowds out on the midway? It was nothing more than a chain attached on one end to one of the elephant’s back legs and on the other end to a stake in the ground.

The adult elephants wore the same size chain as the young baby elephants and could have pulled the stakes out of the ground with ease. And yet, in my four years of working with the circus, not one of the adult elephants ever tried to escape the chain that could have easily been snapped should they give the slightest pull. Why did they not try to escape, you may ask?

Because they were conditioned to believe they could not escape… brainwashed, if you will into believing that the chain that bound their feet was stronger than they were.

There is a principle that says, "If you tell a lie often enough, people will begin to believe it to be true". The elephant and his chain is a perfect example of that principle. The chain is put on an elephant when it is still very young. As a youth, the elephant is not as docile as the adult. It will often pull on the chain in an attempt to free itself, yet it is not quite strong enough to pull the stake out of the ground or to break the chain. Over a period of time, and after many failed attempts to free itself, the elephant resigns itself to bondage because he gives in to the thought that no matter what, he cannot free himself from that chain.

And so, though he may grow from an infant of one hundred-sixty-nine pounds to an adult of six tons, he believes that he can never be free from that chain. So it is with many who have been taught the monetary tithe requirement doctrine for years and years. They have been told the lie long enough that, like the elephant and his chain, they have been conditioned to believe that tithing of their money is a mandatory requirement handed down to the Church by God Himself. Many have heard the lie so often, that whenever it crosses their minds, (often during seasons of financial distress) they believe the Holy Spirit is telling them that they must tithe their money to the Church.

And yet, if the Christian would only pick up his or her Bible and study all instances of tithing in it, that Christian would find that God never authorized the Church to receive a monetary tithe from her members. The monetary tithe is a doctrine that was invented long after the last book of the Holy Bible was penned. The monetary tithe doctrine is an invention of man, not ordained or authorized by God at all.

The only Scriptural commands concerning tithing are found in the dispensation of the Mosaic Law. Those commands all show that the tithes that God required were agricultural in nature; i.e., crops, flocks and herds. (see Leviticus 27:30-33; Deuteronomy 12:17; Deuteronomy 14:22-29; Deuteronomy 26:12; 2 Chronicles 31:5-6, 12; Malachi 3:7-11, Matthew 23:23 & Luke 11:42)

The only time in Scripture that God demanded tithes was during the dispensation of the Mosaic Law, and then it was only required of the children of Israel. No other nation was ever commanded by God to tithe in His Word. (see Leviticus 27:34; Numbers 18:24,26,28; Nehemiah 10:37-38; Psalms 147:19-20; Hebrews 7:5-8 )

Pastors today have no Scriptural justification for preaching their flock must tithe their money to the Church. God never authorized such a doctrine in His Word. Pastors need to stick with what the Word of God says instead of teaching what it does not say. Many pastors teach the monetary tithe doctrine out of pure ignorance of what the Word of God actually says concerning tithing. They were, like their congregations, taught that God requires a tithe from the moment they were saved. They were conditioned to believe, and later preach, a lie.

Still other pastors know the truth about tithing, but because of a deceitful heart, they preach the lie out of greed and for self-gratification.

Saints, I encourage you to be as the Berean's in Paul's day. Don't just accept the words being preached in the pulpit. Don't just accept the lie that you have heard ever since you was a babe in Christ. Search the Scriptures daily to see if what your pastor is teaching or preaching, what you have been taught, is so. Compare the sermon with what the Word of God says. God's Word is the only sound doctrine that is nourishment for your soul.