The Tithe, for the Church or not?

[Jordan Kurecki]

I have gone back and forth on the issue of tithing for a while, and have done some studying on my own. I am still not quite sure what I think.

I probably lean more towards a grace giving position.

 

What position do you hold to, and why?

[Alan]

The Grace position is correct. The father of our faith, Abraham, before the Law, was saved by grace and tithed by grace: Genesis 14:17-24 Abraham gave  to the man of God, Mehchizedek, tithes of all the he gained through battle. Abraham loved the Lord God, the man of God, and the work of God. Nobody coerced him to tithe, he titihed on his own volition.

Melchizedek was a type of the Lord Jesus Christ.  The head of the local, New Testament, bible believing Baptist Church, is the Lord Jesus Christ. "For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body." Ephesians 5:23

Paul told timothy, "But if I tarry long, that hou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the liiving God, the pillat and ground of the truth." 1 Timothy 4:15

The head of the denominations in our age, and the para-church organizations, in our age is a man and not the Lord Jesus Christ. So, I would say tithe to the church.

Paul the apostle, who wrote that we are not under the Law, told the Corinthian church to give financially (carnal things), to the church, as written in the Old Testament,  so that the ministers of the gospel can freely preach. So, the Christian is admonished, not commanded, to tithe and give offerings as spoken in the law.

"Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vinyard, and eateth not the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? Say I these things as a man? or saith the law the same also? For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, not doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth in hope should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope." 1 Corinthians 9: 7 - 10

Paul quoted Deuteronomy 22:10 In the Old Testament, and in the New Testament, the minister is referred to as an "ox." These statutes, in the Law, were not only written for the Jews in Israel, under the Law, but for the church, under grace.

In 1 Timothy 5:17 and 18 Paul not only repeats this admonition in the care of the ministers at church but he goes one step further (under Grace and the Law): "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especilly they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward." 1 Timothy 5:17 and 18

If a person really loves the church and the minister of God than Paul said to honor him with 'double.' Hmmm? I wonder what 'double' means?

In both 1 Corinthians 9:9 , Paul quoted from the Law as his authority: Deuteronomy 22:10

Deuteronomy 22:10, "Thou shalt not plow with and ox and an ass together."

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Doesn't say "honor him with double," it says "give him double honor".  

 

The honor is doubled.

Paul was not telling the Church to tithe.  Else, he would have used the word for tithe, 'apodekatoo' in his instructions to Timothy.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

8 hours ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

I have gone back and forth on the issue of tithing for a while, and have done some studying on my own. I am still not quite sure what I think.

I probably lean more towards a grace giving position.

 

What position do you hold to, and why?

Malachi’s instruction to prove God by bringing the tithes into the storehouse was not speaking of a monetary tithe. It was speaking of an agricultural tithe; the tithe required of the children of Israel at the time. (see Leviticus 27:30-33)

It had nothing to do with the New Testament Church whatsoever. The Priests of Israel were the ones God was speaking to. They had robbed God, and God wanted His tithes brought back to the storehouse from which they were removed. (cross reference Nehemiah 13:1-12)

Pastors have misused Malachi 3:8-10 and abused the flock over which God had made them overseers (see 1Peter 5:1-4) with a command that is totally foreign to Scripture… the command to tithe money to the New Testament Church.

In Mark 12:39-44, Jesus warned of Scribes, religious leaders in the Temple who were robbing widow’s houses. Today, many religious leaders around the world continue not only to rob widows houses through the monetary tithe requirement lie, but they also rob every other household that believes their teaching that God requires monetary tithes of New Testament Church congregations.

In the Bible, tithes were never commanded for the New Testament Church, never carried to the New Testament Church, never collected in the New Testament Church, and never controlled by the New Testament Church. They were the property of Levites, widows, orphans and foreigners in Israel.

Psalm 147:19-20 He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD.

In the last place that tithing is seen as a command in the Word of God, Hebrews 7, it is still the sons of Levi to whom the tithe belongs, and the tithes are still according to the Law, i.e.; agricultural.

Pastors and Church Leadership need to repent of twisting the Word of God into a lie and begin teaching the Word as it is written.  God’s commanded holy tithe was never monetary… it was agricultural.  They need to repent of teaching for doctrine the man-made commendment of monetary tithing.

Leviticus 27:30-33 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD’S: it is holy unto the LORD. And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD. He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.

Matthew 15:9  But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men.

 

Many, in an attempt to justify the taking of monetary tithes from congregant's incomes, use Abram's tithe to Melchizedek as a crutch.  The claim is Abram tithed from what he gained in Battle.  However, the Genesis 14 text reveals that Abram did not gain any of those war spoils at all.  He promised God that he would not claim any as his own.  So, he did not gain those spoils at all.

 

Besides that, Abram's tithe nowhere resembles the tithe that these preachers teach today.

 

Abram's tithe - war spoils 

Tithes taught today - household income

 

Abram's tithe - one time event 

Tithes taught today - week after week

 

Abram's tithe - included articles of clothing

Tithes taught today - strictly money

 

Easy to see that the "Abraham tithed before the Law" crutch Is extremely weak when compared with the Biblical facts.

 

And that's my position.

Edited November 22, 2015 by Standing Firm In Christ

[Alan]

2 hours ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

Malachi’s instruction to prove God by bringing the tithes into the storehouse was not speaking of a monetary tithe. It was speaking of an agricultural tithe; the tithe required of the children of Israel at the time. (see Leviticus 27:30-33) to say that only a tithe is from agricultural is adding to the scriptures. Anybody can tithe anything they want: that includes money. Not everybody was a farmer in the land of Israel and to limit tithes and offerings in only fruit of land is not correct. Nowhere in Leviticus 27:30-33 does God say, "only agricultural products."

It had nothing to do with the New Testament Church whatsoever. The Priests of Israel were the ones God was speaking to. They had robbed God, and God wanted His tithes brought back to the storehouse from which they were removed. (cross reference Nehemiah 13:1-12) Not all of the priests were robbing God. Quite a few of the priests in the Old Testament were faithful.

Pastors have misused Malachi 3:8-10 and abused the flock over which God had made them overseers (see 1Peter 5:1-4) with a command that is totally foreign to Scripture… the command to tithe money to the New Testament Church.

In Mark 12:39-44, Jesus warned of Scribes, religious leaders in the Temple who were robbing widow’s houses. The condemnation of the Lord Jesus towards the chief priests in Mark 12:38-40 is in stark contrast to the commendation of the Lord Jesus to the widow and her mites. This is a perversion of the words of the Lord Jesus. Today, many religious leaders around the world continue not only to rob widows houses through the monetary tithe requirement I harly know a pastor that 'requires' a person to tithe. Your continual exaggerations are not only irksome, but, is somewhat slanderous. lie, but they also rob every other household that believes their teaching that God requires monetary tithes of New Testament Church congregations. Again, to say that pastors are 'robbing' their members of their churches is quite an exaggeration.

In the Bible, tithes were never commanded for the New Testament Church, never carried to the New Testament Church, never collected in the New Testament Church, and never controlled by the New Testament Church. They were the property of Levites, widows, orphans and foreigners in Israel. Very few pastors tell their congregations that tithing is a requirement. Your exaggerations are in error. Abraham, by grace tithed, before the Law and Paul the Apostle in 1 Corinthians 9:7-10 admonished, not commanded, the saints to give their offerings as the Old Testament saints.

Psalm 147:19-20 He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD.

In the last place that tithing is seen as a command in the Word of God, Hebrews 7, it is still the sons of Levi to whom the tithe belongs, and the tithes are still according to the Law, i.e.; agricultural. There is not onle word in hebrews 7 that even mentions the word 'agricultural.' In fact in Hebrewa 7:1-8,  we are referred back to Abraham giving tithes to Melchisedc. The tithes given to Melchisedec were more than just agricultural; they were monetary.

Pastors and Church Leadership need to repent of twisting the Word of God into a lie and begin teaching the Word as it is written.  God’s commanded holy tithe was never monetary… it was agricultural.  They need to repent of teaching for doctrine the man-made commendment of monetary tithing. 

Leviticus 27:30-33 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD’S: it is holy unto the LORD. And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD. He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.

Matthew 15:9  But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men.

 

Many, in an attempt to justify the taking of monetary tithes from congregant's incomes, use Abram's tithe to Melchizedek as a crutch.  The claim is Abram tithed from what he gained in Battle.  However, the Genesis 14 text reveals that Abram did not gain any of those war spoils at all.  He promised God that he would not claim any as his own.  So, he did not gain those spoils at all. You are adding your own unproven assumption to the reason why Abraham tithed to Melchizedek and you are adding to the word of God and perverting what Abraham tithed. Genesis 14;20, "And blessed  be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all."

 

Besides that, Abram's tithe nowhere resembles the tithe that these preachers teach today. In an effort to belittle the pastors who teach the correct interpretation of this pasage that is an undue assumption and comparison. The subject is tithing. 10 per cent is 10 percent no matter either rich or poor.  

 

Abram's tithe - war spoils

Tithes taught today - household income

 

Abram's tithe - one time event That Abraham only tithed one time is a undue assumption nowhere proven by any scripture.

Tithes taught today - week after week

 

Abram's tithe - included articles of clothing

Tithes taught today - strictly money

 

Easy to see the crutch Is extremely weak when compared with the facts.

 

And that's my position.

 

Edited November 22, 2015 by Alan
spelling and deleted one sentence

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Leviticus 27:30-33 clearly does say only agricultural products.  It says "all the tithes of thr land," and then proceeds to tell the reader what those tithes are... Seed of the land, fruit of the tree, and every tenth animal...

It most certainly does limit it to agricultural only.  Further, in every other passage in the Law where tithine contents are described, they are always agricultural, i.e.; corn, wine, oil, mint, rue, cummin, etc..

 

God said in Malachi 2:1, And now, O ye Priests, this commandment is for you.  In Malachi's day, all the Priest's were accused of robbing God.

 

Jesus said the scribes were robbing the widows.  Your argument is with Him.

I gave a link to a video where a pastor does use the Law to guilt and manipulate the congregation into tithing.  Did you not listen to it?  I can post many more sermons from sermon audio, sermon index, and youtube where the same tactics are used by other ministers.  So, no, what I have posted is not a lie, nor is it slanderous.  What I posted about pastors manipulating their congregations theough the monetary tithe requirement doctrine is 100% fact.

 

when pastors teach a doctrine that is totally foreign to either Old or New Testament texts in order to garner finances from the congregation, they are robbing the ones who fall for the unbiblical doctrine.

 

there are more pastors who manipulate their congregations giving than you may think,... a lot more.

 

Abram did tithe, I agree.  However, it was from spoils of war.  Not from his own riches, nor from his own income.

 

 

Edited November 22, 2015 by Standing Firm In Christ

[Alan]

 the topic is not what other pastors say in your videos, or if they manipulate the tithing question. The topic is Jordan's question whether the tithe is for the church or not.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Acts 15:28 (KJV) 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

Acts 15:29 (KJV) 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

 

Had the Holy Ghost wanted tithing to be observed, He would have said so.

 

and, remarkably absent from the Pastoral Epistles, which speak of Church operation, is any mention of tithing.

[Alimantado]

2 hours ago, Alan said:

 the topic is not what other pastors say in your videos, or if they manipulate the tithing question. The topic is Jordan's question whether the tithe is for the church or not.

Alan, it is you who said the things below in this very thread isn't it?

"I hardly know a pastor that 'requires' a person to tithe. Your continual exaggerations are not only irksome, but, is somewhat slanderous..."

"Again, to say that pastors are 'robbing' their members of their churches is quite an exaggeration..."

"Very few pastors tell their congregations that tithing is a requirement. Your exaggerations are in error."

So there we have you making statements about how often pastors require people to tithe yourself. You claim it doesn't happen often and go on to accuse SFIC of exaggeration and slander. So now SFIC is responding to your claims and your accusations with his video.

For a person to make statements and accusations on a thread and then tell others they are going off-topic for trying to respond to those statements and accusations is contradictory, unless the person withdraws their original statements or admits that they went off-topic themselves.

 

[Standing Firm In Christ]

8 minutes ago, Alimantado said:

Alan, it is you who said the things below in this very thread isn't it?

"I hardly know a pastor that 'requires' a person to tithe. Your continual exaggerations are not only irksome, but, is somewhat slanderous..."

"Again, to say that pastors are 'robbing' their members of their churches is quite an exaggeration..."

"Very few pastors tell their congregations that tithing is a requirement. Your exaggerations are in error."

So there we have you making statements about how often pastors require people to tithe yourself. You claim it doesn't happen often and go on to accuse SFIC of exaggeration and slander. So now SFIC is responding to your claims and your accusations with his video.

For a person to make statements and accusations on a thread and then tell others they are going off-topic for trying to respond to those statements and accusations is contradictory, unless the person withdraws their original statements or admits that they went off-topic themselves.

 

Thank you, Alimantado.

[Invicta]

Alan forgive me if I misunderstand your first post.  You say the Grace position is correct, which I take to freely giving,, but later seem to say that tithes are required, can you tell me which is correct?

I did know a pastor who said we should give tithes and offerings on top of that..  ??????

A friend went to a church about 25 miles from here and he said the preacher once said he wouldn't preach until  he had £2.000 and that God had told him eight people would give him £250 each.  It seemed he soon got that amount. They didn't pass round a plate but credit card readers.

We have freewill giving.  We have a box on the wall at each side of the rear of the church.We don't expect visitors or unsaved to contribute to our church.  We believe that it is for the members to support the church and its ministries.

 

[Heir of Salvation]

8 hours ago, Alan said:

The Grace position is correct. The father of our faith, Abraham, before the Law, was saved by grace and tithed by grace: Genesis 14:17-24 Abraham gave  to the man of God, Mehchizedek, tithes of all the he gained through battle. Abraham loved the Lord God, the man of God, and the work of God. Nobody coerced him to tithe, he titihed on his own volition.

1.) It is unlikely he "tithed" by "grace".

Many Bible Dictionaries, commentaries and historical documents will tell you  that he "tithed" under compulsion as was a generally accepted tax owed on spoils of war in the Canaanite region of his day.  It was common practice to render a 10 percentile to the local ruling Priest-king.

The Old Testament Law did not require 10% from spoils of war.  It required ( I believe) 1% of spoils of war.

2.) He did  not "tithe" in the sense you mean (as 10% of his income).  He ONE TIME rendered exactly 10% of certain spoils to 1 person at one time.  And he kept nothing else of the spoils.  Scripture nowhere records him doing anything else Nothing suggests it was a lifelong habit off of his income and regular......

To assume as much is CLEARLY adding to the text.

to say that only a tithe is from agricultural is adding to the scriptures.

Absolutely not..........Every time the tithe is commanded or spoken of it is in reference to Agricultural products ONLY.....To suggest money even could be used is an assumption at best or eisegesis at worst.

B.T.W......................You couldn't even bring Agricultural products from outside the land of Israel either........They wouldn't have accepted it.  

One could even BUY BACK their tithe at a 5% mark-up with money if they needed the agricultural products (probably for the next years' seed-crop).......ONLY agricultural products could be bought-back with money.  And one ws permitted to not surrender their tithe if they wished to pay the mark-up on it..... No one would do that with money.

Nobody coerced him to tithe, he titihed on his own volition.

A tithe is, and always is, compulsory...    It's a law which must be obeyed whether one does it willingly, lovingly, or under absolute compulsion....

"Tithing" is a LAW.....Period.  Whether it is incumbent upon Christians or only Old-Testament Jews, one must obey it.  I assure you though, nothing suggests in the Old Testament that "grace" is anywhere in view.

God loves the "cheerful" giver..............He demanded the absolutely obedient tither.  Tithing was a tax levied upon a Theocratic society.  If you didn't render it....the O.T. equivalent of the IRS would be knocking at your door.  Nothing grace about it.

Nowhere in Leviticus 27:30-33 does God say, "only agricultural products."

That's exactly what it says.  It explains it in detail...and the part where you could NOT pay  in Agricultural produce.....is explained in literally the very verse you quoted.....read VS. 31 please:

"And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof "

Question:  Would a person wish to "redeem" any of his monetary "tithe" of 10% by adding a 5% markup????????

I want to be that guy's banker............Clearly, it was for Agricultural products and a tither could take back some of his produce at a 5% mark-up (of money) in order to preserve seed-crop.

Not everybody was a farmer in the land of Israel

Most weren't.....they didn't tithe either.  They gave offerings and paid a Temple tax. (which was monetary)...when Jesus and his disciples couldn't come up with it....Jesus put the coinage in a fish's mouth.  That wasn't a tithe.

Abraham, by grace tithed, before the Law

Wrong.  "ABRAM"  as a still un-circumcised Canaanite rendered the commonly required 10% tax/tithe of war spoils to the local Priest-king..........That is not "TITHING" off of his regular income.  To say he rendered 10% of his income off of his own flocks and herds as a habit is nowhere suggested..... that is "adding" to Scripture and an unwarranted assumption.  It's not in the text.

And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram

said unto Abram,

I have made Abram rich:

The point at which "Abram" was re-named "Abraham" is incredibly critical to understanding Scripture.  Jews understand this.

There is not onle word in hebrews 7 that even mentions the word 'agricultural.'

Of course not....It was written to Hebrews......none of whom would have thought for 1/1billionth of one second that a "tithe" included money. 

Only Gentiles of the last 200 years would have suggested as much.  The writer of Hebrews was addressing Jews.  ALL Hebrews knew what the tithe was.  And they know it isn't money.................They still know that actually. Ask any Orthodox Jew or any Messianic Jew today.  It floors them that Gentile Christians teach that we should "tithe" to the local Church.

That Abraham only tithed one time is a undue assumption nowhere proven by any scripture.

That's desperate.....................You can't prove a negative assertion.

ABRAM (not Abraham) "tithed" one time.......and one time only.  To suggest that someone somehow "show" that he DIDN'T do it at other points is fallacious and question-begging.  He didn't do it.  He did one time...off of spoils of war and didn't keep anything else for himself, to even suggest otherwise is to invent more occurrences out of whole-cloth.  That's not in the text.

 

 

Edited November 22, 2015 by Heir of Salvation

[John81]

15 hours ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

I have gone back and forth on the issue of tithing for a while, and have done some studying on my own. I am still not quite sure what I think.

I probably lean more towards a grace giving position.

 

What position do you hold to, and why?

If a person studies Christian giving, as put forth in the New Testament which is for Christian living, it's very clear there is no tithe requirement.

Tithe commandments were under the Old Testament (Covenant) for Israel. Unless a person believes in replacement theology, that the church has replaced Israel and therefore the commands to Israel apply to the church, there is no basis anywhere in Scripture to command a Christian to tithe.

[LindaR]

1 hour ago, John81 said:

If a person studies Christian giving, as put forth in the New Testament which is for Christian living, it's very clear there is no tithe requirement.

Tithe commandments were under the Old Testament (Covenant) for Israel. Unless a person believes in replacement theology, that the church has replaced Israel and therefore the commands to Israel apply to the church, there is no basis anywhere in Scripture to command a Christian to tithe.

Amen Bro John! 

The Biblical tithe was never money....it was always agricultural and God gave that command to tithe only to the children of Israel (Leviticus 27:30-34; Psalms 147:19-20).  The Levites (sons of Levi) were the only people who were authorized to receive/take the Levitical tithes because they (the sons of Levi) had no inheritance ....the tithe was their inheritance (Numbers 18:20-26).

So when did God change the Levitical tithe from agricultural to monetary?  Our biblical guideline for giving is grace, not compulsion or coercion.
2 Corinthians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
 

Edited November 22, 2015 by LindaR

[Standing Firm In Christ]

HoS,

 

Spot on, except for one line....

2 hours ago, Heir of Salvation said:

And one ws permitted to not surrender their tithe if they wished to pay the mark-up on it

Actually, they had to surrender the tithe.  Then they had the option of buying it back if they so chose to do.

 

 Leviticus 27:31 states, "And if a man will at all redeem aught of his tithes, he shall add a fifth part thereto."

The word "redeem" means "to buy back".  The farmer could not buy back something he had not first surrendered.  He tithed first. Then, he redeemed the tithe if he so chose to do.  

Edited November 22, 2015 by Standing Firm In Christ