The Tithe, for the Church or not?

[Heir of Salvation]

1 hour ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

HoS,

 

Spot on, except for one line....

Actually, they had to surrender the tithe.  Then they had the option of buying it back if they so chose to do.

 

 Leviticus 27:31 states, "And if a man will at all redeem aught of his tithes, he shall add a fifth part thereto."

The word "redeem" means "to buy back".  The farmer could not buy back something he had not first surrendered.  He tithed first. Then, he redeemed the tithe if he so chose to do.  

It's a minor point, but, I'd take some issue.  I think it states you could "buy-back" before it actually changed hands...and you could also redeem part of it and not all...if, say, you only wanted to buy-back half of it....read the KJV closely...

"And if a man will at all redeem aught of his tithes,  that is old-school for "any amount he wishes"...

So, a man could "buy-back" or "redeem"....(or simply only pay say half and render the rest in gold +5%)

That's what "aught" means............any amount or some amount one chooses.

Other than that minor discrepancy, we're on the same page........we're debating 999 vs. 1001 angels on the head of a pin....but, a man could redeem PART of his tithe at least.

Most farmers who need seed crop only need a portion of it etc...

[LindaR]

1 hour ago, Heir of Salvation said:

So, a man could "buy-back" or "redeem"....(or simply only pay say half and render the rest in gold +5%)

Interesting.  What scripture verse led you to this conclusion of a 5% mark-up?  Where does it say "render the rest in gold..."?

[Alan]

Abraham tithed because he wanted to, by grace and cheerfully, and that is the same reason why most of the saints I know give of thier tithes and offerings. Abraham lived by grace thrugh faith,  he walked and by grace through faith and he gave by grace through faith. Abraham, like the widow and her mites, were not commended to tithe nor where they 'robbed' or tithed and gave their offerings through coercion, joyfully and cheerfully tithed and gave their offerings. That, my beloved brethen, is due out of a heart and love to the Lord  above. We give out of a heart of love, devotion, cheeerfull out of a grateful heart: just like Abraham and the widow.

 

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Still waiting for that verse that says the widow gave joyfully and because she wanted to.

 

Is that in 1 Opinions? Or 2 Opinions?

 

there is nothing in the Genesis or Hebrews accounts to indicate that Abram tithed his own riches, his own income.  Nor inany historical records.

[Alan]

The Lord Jesus publicly commended the widow. Is that not enough? Would the Lord Jesus commend the poor widow if she gave grudgingly? Would the the Lord Jesus commned her if she gave through coercion? Would the Lord Jesus commend the widow if she gave due through 'robbery?'  Would the Lord Jesus commend her if she gave out of necessity? To insinutate that the widow did not give cheerfully and because she wanted to is an attempt to cheapen her gift and (like the Pharisees), judge the motive of her heart in order to promote your personal agenda against pastors and churches who give tithes and offerings. The Lord Jesus said," Judge not, that ye be not judged." Matthew 7:1 You are the one judging the motives of her heart; not me.

50 minutes ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

Still waiting for that verse that says the widow gave joyfully and because she wanted to. The Lord Jesus commended her. That is enough for me. It is you that is doubting the veracity of the commendation of the Lord Jesus: not me. I do not need another verse.

 

Is that in 1 Opinions? Or 2 Opinions? Look who is talking about opinions!!!!!!! You have perverted the words of the Lord Jesus in telling us she, (and other fine saints  who give tithes and offerings), was robbed, coereced, and intimidated and gave out of necessity or a commandment.

 

there is nothing in the Genesis or Hebrews accounts to indicate that Abram tithed his own riches, his own income.  Nor inany historical records. Is not one time enough for you? Some of God's saints are quite willing to accept the word of God on any subject only once to accept it as fact, or as a standard of practice, unless written otherwise. No, you want the scriptures to answer your questions your way and your method. Only a person of pride, or ignorance, demands scripture to answer a persons questions the way the questioner asks the question.

The widow gave cheerfully and lovingly out of a heart of love and devotion to God and His work. The Lord loves a cheerful giver and the Lord loves this widow because she did give cheerfully. 2 Corinthians 9:7, "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver."

The widow gave cheerfully and she purposed in her own heart to give her all. And, my friend, that is the reason a lot of other saints give of their tithes and offerings to the church. We give because we have purposed in our heart, and we cheerfully give of our finances to the church. Whether or not it is commanded to give of our tithes in the Old Testament is immaterial. Whether or not, as you say, the Jew was only to give of his agricultural goods is immaterial.  

As a personal testimony. I give (and I am sure many other people give), my tithes and offerings to the chuch because I ( and I am sure many other people), have purposed in my (our), heart to do so and not out of necessity. And, furthermore, we give cheerfully, of the blessings that God sends our way.

Alan

[trapperhoney]

Christ and the widow were still under the Law.

2 Corinthians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

If we are truly free from the Law then we are free from every aspect of it, otherwise we are not under grace.  Paul is pretty clear about that in his writings.  It is my personal conviction that it is between each individual and God as to what they are to give.  Some are convicted to give 10% of their income which is often referred to as tithing.  Some are convicted to give more.  But sometimes giving, especially "tithing" can be a cop out.  People think because they give their 10% then they have done their duty.  God really doesn't need our money, He wants our service.  Christ got his tax money from a fish's mouth.  God will provide for his faithful servants.  I also think that by harping on the 10% it also gives people excuses to ignore the Holy Spirit when he is convicting them to give more.  We need to quit trying to play the Holy Spirit, get out of his way and let Him work.  The point it, pray about it and what God convicts you to do, follow it.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

The passage does not say anything about Jesus conmmending the widow.

1 Timothy 5 says that if  man provides not for his own household he has denied the faith and is worse than an infidel.

I highly doubt Jesus was commending the widow for denying her own household needs.

 

He was demonstrating how a spiritually bankrupt system was physically bankrupting widows, devouring their houses by taking their provision.

 

[Standing Firm In Christ]

What preachers call tithes today is nothing like that which God’s Word says concerning His holy tithe.

In the days from Aaron to the Apostle Paul, the tithe was only of the crops, flocks and herds. (Leviticus 27:30-33)  Today, it is taught that God requires our money to be tithed. (There is no Scriptural support for this teaching)

In the days from Aaron to the Apostle Paul, only the Levites were authorized to receive the yearly tithe. (Numbers 18:24-26)  On the third year the tithe was kept in the tither's city to feed the widows, the orphans, the Levites that were living in the tither's city, and the foreigner that was visiting the city.  (Deuteronomy 14:22-23, 28-29)  Every seventh year, there was no tithe required. (Leviticus 25:4,20)  Today, churches teach a weekly tithe with no instruction to keep the tithe in your own community, nor is there a rest from the tithe every seventh year.  Pastors of the Church teach that the Church can receive it. (There is no Scriptural support for this teaching)

In the days from Aaron to the Apostle Paul, the tithe was only required of those who owned land on which one could plant gardens or orchards, or breed livestock on. Men who did not own gardens, orchards or livestock were not required to tithe. (Deuteronomy 14:22)  Today, the Church teaches God requires all members of the congregation to tithe. (There is no Scriptural support for this teaching)

In the days from Aaron to the Apostle Paul, only Israelites were required to tithe. (Leviticus 27:30-34; Psalms 147:19-20) The Levites could not accept tithes from anyone who was not of the nation of Israel. (Numbers 18:26)  Today, Church members all over the world are told to tithe. (There is no Scriptural support for this teaching)

In the days from Aaron to the Apostle Paul, firstfruits and the tithe were separate (Nehemiah 10:37-38; 12:44)  Today, the Church teaches that tithes and firstfruits are the same thing. (There is no Scriptural support for this teaching)

In the days from Aaron to the Apostle Paul, the tithe was of the increase of crops, flocks & livestock.  (Leviticus 27:30-33; Deuteronomy 14:22)  Today, Churches teach that 10% of your paycheck is to be tithed. (There is no Scriptural support for this teaching)

Contrary to the popular teaching, God is not going to curse you if you don’t tithe your money. Many a preacher will stand behind the pulpit and preach that Malachi 3:8-10 is a warning to their congregations that they will receive a curse if they don’t tithe their money. Since God’s Word defines what the tithe was, how can preachers say it is something different?  How can the members of the congregation agree that the tithe is something other than what God's Holy Word declares it to be?  Brethren, the tithe in Malachi 3 was of the crops. God says bring it in the storehouse. The storehouse was rooms encircling the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. (1 Kings 6:5-10)  And God told the Priests who had stolen the tithes to return the tithes. If they would, He would open the windows of Heaven, (remember the first time the windows of Heaven are mentioned in the Bible? God made it rain upon the Earth) and He would pour out a blessing that the people would not be able to receive. He would rebuke the devourer (the locust) for their sake. Folks, God was speaking of abundance of crops as a blessing for tithing of the crops. God’s tithe was not money then, nor has it ever been.

Brethren, if you want to please God with your money, give as the Apostle Paul instructed… as you purpose in your heart. (2 Corinthians 9:7)  Don’t give grugdingly, but rather willingly and cheerfully.

But regardless if you give 10% of your money, it is not tithes according to the Word of God. Tithes were only of the crops, flocks, and herds. What you are giving when you give money is a contribution.
There is not one instance of the Apostle's teaching the Gentile Churches to tithe their money in the Word of God. As a matter of fact, when the Jerusalem Council met as recorded in Acts 15, the Jerusalem Council wanted the Gentile Believers to be circumcised, AND to keep the Law of Moses.” (v.5)  The tithe was one of the laws found within the Law of Moses.

What did James tell the Council that day? It seemeth good to the Holy Ghost and to us that no greater burden be laid upon the Gentile Believers than these necessary things: to abstain from blood, and from things strangled, and from idols, and from fornication. He ended with “if ye do these things, ye do well.” (vv.28-29)

One would think that the Holy Ghost would have told James to teach the Gentile Churches that they were to tithe. But according to the Word of God, the tithe was not a necessary thing required of the Gentiles.

So how are we to see to the financial needs of the Church if we don’t tithe? By giving cheerfully and willingly. Freewill contributions, not of compulsion or necessity. God loves a cheerful giver.

If you purpose in your heart to give 10% of your money, great! But since God’s Word tells us what the tithe was, and who was required to tithe, your 10% of your money is not God’s tithe. It is a contribution.  When God's Word says His holy tithe is agriculture but the preacher says it is money, God is right and the preacher is wrong.

The tithe of the congregation was not taken to the Temple/Tabernacle by the people. It was taken to the Levites in the farming communities, who in turn took a tithe of the tithe they received to the Temple/Tabernacle. (Nehemiah 10:37-38)  That’s right, only 1% of the original tither’s agricultural increase went to the House of God,… not 10%.  And it was the Levite who was responsible for taking the tithe to the House of God, not the children of Israel.

Study it out folks. That which is preached as "God's tithe" today is not the tithe instituted by God. Not even close to that which God instituted.  It is totally foreign to the Word of God.

Abram’s tithe to Melchizedek? Yes, that was prior to the Law. But that does not make tithing an eternal principle. Abram had concubines too. Is that an eternal principle? Abram married his sister. Is that an eternal principle? After all, it was before the Law.

Abram’s tithe to Melchizedek was not of his own property. That which he tithed he did not consider his own. He told Bera, the king of Sodom, that he had promised God he would not keep any of the spoils of war for himself. So he was not tithing his own property, but the property of others.

Abram’s tithe an eternal principle? Hardly. That is, unless we are to go to war; kill someone; recover stolen property from the dead, if any; tithe from that stolen property; and give the rest of the property away.

Jacob’s tenth? Not a good example of an eternal principle. Jacob vowed a vow to give a tenth of all that God would give him, yes. But that vow was in context of WHAT God said He would give Jacob.  A careful study of Genesis 28 will reveal that Jacob’s vow had to do with land, not money.

Jacob made that vow with conditions attached. And one of those conditions was not met until nearly 21 years after Jacob made the vow.

If Jacob’s vow is an example we are to follow, then we can bargain with God. Tell Him if He meets certain criteria first, then we will give a tenth of all He has promised to give us.

A careful and prayerful study of the Word of God will reveal to the reader that the tithe taught today is not what God’s Word says about God's holy tithe.  Preachers are falsely teaching a man-made command as if it is a doctrine ordained by God.

Matthew 15:9. But in vain they do worship me; teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Standing Firm In Christ

[Heir of Salvation]

6 hours ago, LindaR said:

Interesting.  What scripture verse led you to this conclusion of a 5% mark-up?  Where does it say "render the rest in gold..."?

vs. 31... But, I was reading "fifth-part" wrong....it's 20%! The 10% of crops or animals was, of course required.  If they wanted some of their produce or some breeding animals back they could give the Levite its value plus 20%.

Sorry for the error folks.....it's a full 1/5th.  or 20%.  Not a good deal unless you REALLY need that particular crop or those particular animals.

 

Edited November 23, 2015 by Heir of Salvation

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Actually, it was 20%.  "A fifth part".  A fifth part is 20% of a whole number.

 

If they wanted a bushel of barley back, they paid the assessed value of that bushel plus an additional 20% of the assessed value.

 

The crop tithe, whether in part or in whole, was redeemable.  However, verse 33 shows the animal tithe could not be redeemed.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Standing Firm In Christ

[LindaR]

2 minutes ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

The crop tithe, whether in part or in whole, was redeemable.  However, verse 33 shows the animal tithe could not be redeemed.

The animal tithe was not 10%, it was every 10th animal which passed under the rod:
Leviticus 27:32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.
Leviticus 27:33 He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.

Animals could not be redeemed.

[Heir of Salvation]

43 minutes ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

Actually, it was 20%.  "A fifth part".  A fifth part is 20% of a whole number.

 

If they wanted a bushel of barley back, they paid the assessed value of that bushel plus an additional 20% of the assessed value.

 

The crop tithe, whether in part or in whole, was redeemable.  However, verse 33 shows the animal tithe could not be redeemed.

YUP!.....and there I was expounding more perfectly the Word of God, and completely was off by 15% LOL!.....

 

[No Nicolaitans]

On 11/21/2015, 9:27:19, Jordan Kurecki said:

I have gone back and forth on the issue of tithing for a while, and have done some studying on my own. I am still not quite sure what I think.

I probably lean more towards a grace giving position.

 

What position do you hold to, and why?

 

Sorry for the weird formatting... I'm on a phone.

Leviticus 27:30-34

30  And all the tithe of the land,whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD.

 31  And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.

 32  And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.

 33  He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.

 34  These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.

[Ukulelemike]

I believe we're making way too much of this than we need to.

Simply, the 'tithe' was an aspect of the OT law. Abraham gave to Melchizedek 10% of his war spoils and gave the rest back to the kings from the nations he helped. he kept nothing for himself, save that which the men ate of. And it was giving to God, through Melchizedek, recognizing him as the priest of the most High God. It was everything-money, jewelry, clothes, food, whatever they gained through the spoil. The Bible says nothing more about it, specifically, so to go any further is pure speculation.

Jacob promised to give 'the tenth part' of all he had, but it was actually conditional-it wasn't the first ten percent, but the tenth part, really, the last ten percent, by his words, and it was conditioned upon the Lord first being faithful to him and bringing him safely back home. We see nothing about that ever being followed through with, though we can safely assume it was. Was it a regular giving? To someone? Or was it, perhaps, 10% of his flock and herd given as a sacrifice? The Bible doesn't tell. So can we consider it a tithe? I don't think so, in the strictest sense.

I think the modern giving to the churches is comparable to Ex 36:3, "And they received of Moses all the offering, which the children of Israel had brought for the work of the service of the sanctuary, to make it withal. And they brought yet unto him free offerings every morning." When the tabernacle had to be built, and all the furnishings for it, the people gave a freewill offering, so much so that there was more than needed, and Moses had to command the giving be ceased. It was freewill, made up of money, jewelry, garments, whatever was needed for the tabernacle.   This seems more like what the churches do today. Like not long back when we had our own building, we had a need for new double-pane windows-so some gave money to buy them, while others just went and bought some windows.

I think the big problem comes when pastors refer to the giving AS 'tithing', specifically, because that brings the implication that it is an absolute requirement. And to say few pastors teach it is mandatory, well, my experience has been pastors who do, indeed, teach that. One pastor told a member of the church that was having financial troubles, that he HAD to give his tithe, but that, if he gave it, the pastor would give it back to him-he just HAD to show his faithfulness in his tithes. Then there ore the pastors who teach that God will take the tithe one way or another, be it in giving, or through car repairs, because we know that God is honored when our cars break down. Even the OT priests didn't teach that. "Verily thou must giveth the tithe of thy field and thy flocks, else the wheels of thy chariots shall fall off, or thy mule shall break his leg and God shalt collect His tithe in thy repair bill."

[Critical Mass]

Tithing means simply giving a certain percent of your abundance. Christians should tithe but they are not commanded to in the NT. When I say tithe I don't mean in the manner as they did under the OT economy but I see no problem purposing in your heart to give a certain percentage of your income every week or month. The church has bills to pay too.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Critical Mass