Proof of the shrinking American brain.

[Saved41199]

Scripture for my social justice beliefs:

Matthew 25:31-46

Micah 6:8

James 1:27

And as one who has been greatly helped by government programs, including HUD-VASH, the VA, Medicaid, I do not want to see these programs go away. I'm sorry if you can't understand this, but without those programs, I would be homeless, my husband would be dead and I'd probably be trying to end my life on a regular basis, until I succeeded. I once thought as you do until life hit us in the face. At that point you have no idea how thankful I am for the programs that got us off the streets, got our medical needs met, We are not young, we have worked all our lives, until things came crashing down. 

You've fallen for the propaganda. It's not Christian, you've been sold a bill of goods. It started with good ol' Ronnie Reagan and the "Moral Majority" back in the late 70's, early 80's. 

The joy of being a critical thinker unwilling to walk in lockstep with anyone. 

Edited January 25, 2017 by Saved41199

[Ukulelemike]

7 minutes ago, Saved41199 said:

Scripture for my social justice beliefs:

Matthew 25:31-46 These verses have a very specific context, and that has to do with during the tribulation period, how people treated the people of God. It can't really be used in a general social justice context, and especially anything having to do with the government doing anything. It is personal.

Micah 6:8  Again, personal-we, as individuals, ought to seek to be a help to others as much as we are able, but it is neither a mandate toward government nor a church.

James 1:27 Individuals, not churches or government.

As people, as believers, we should do what we can to be good to others. But the most important thing we can give is the gospel unto salvation, otherwise all we are doing is making them comfortable in their lost state.

[Saved41199]

I would encourage you to read this article, if you dare...

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-right-real-origins-107133#.VMP8NiwrjIV

and see where you've been led down a primrose path that had it's beginnings in bigotry and hate. 

[Saved41199]

21 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said:

As people, as believers, we should do what we can to be good to others. But the most important thing we can give is the gospel unto salvation, otherwise all we are doing is making them comfortable in their lost state.

Oh my goodness! SO, you give a homeless man a tract, tell him "be warm and well fed" and keep going? Really? How about giving him a hand up? 

Government has to do the job because it is too big a job for a single entity or group of entities. Realistically, it would be lovely if it could be a one to one deal. But, it isn't. And, your opposition to all this and the language you've used shows me that you are opposed to certain things because of reasons I don't think are quite biblical. You fell for the "welfare queen" description that has been so thoroughly debunked. As I stated above, I AM a welfare recipient who has benefitted from government programs. I wish you could see that for every bogus baloney news story you hear, there are thousands just like me who are able to get back on our feet after being kicked in the teeth. 

The strongest opposition to welfare programs comes from those who are actually the greatest recipients of them...West Virginia, Kentucky, Alabama, Mississippi, these states are "deep red" and very Christian...and take MORE welfare dollars than the inner cities of Detroit and New York. Yet, nothing is EVER said about the generations of welfare recipients in the hollers and the mountains. Why? Think about it...long and hard. See what kind of propaganda you're ingesting and then think about it again. 

[Invicta]

6 minutes ago, Saved41199 said:

Oh my goodness! SO, you give a homeless man a tract, tell him "be warm and well fed" and keep going? Really? How about giving him a hand up? 

James 2:15  If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,16  And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
 

[Saved41199]

1 minute ago, Invicta said:

James 2:15  If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,16  And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
 

My point exactly. Why I support social safety nets. Strong social safety nets. It is easier to talk to someone about the gospel when their stomach isn't growling, when they aren't dirty and cold. 

But, that makes me a "dirty lib" among some of those here. It's ok though...I have to follow what I believe, untainted by the propaganda of the world. 

[weary warrior]

38 minutes ago, Saved41199 said:

My point exactly. Why I support social safety nets. Strong social safety nets. It is easier to talk to someone about the gospel when their stomach isn't growling, when they aren't dirty and cold. 

But, that makes me a "dirty lib" among some of those here. It's ok though...I have to follow what I believe, untainted by the propaganda of the world. 

Your heart for people is admirable, and your own experience of receiving help when needed is a blessing. But you are not a welfare queen. You and your husband contributed to this country until life "hit you in the face". But your experience does not match that of everyone else. I was LEO in Alaska for a time, in remote Alaska Native villages. As is my son now. And the abuses to the system, the welfare mentality that has taken away the dignity, the ambition, the self respect, the work ethic of a huge swath of the population is heart breaking. Saved41199, there is always 2 sides to a coin. The is no light without darkness, no white without black. You hold to your side of the coin very strongly, but you need to recognize and admit the other side as well. The abuse of unbridled welfare kills the soul of a people worse than the hunger ravages the body. I have dealt with so many teen girls, multiple generations of them, having babies on a regular basis for the addition to the welfare check they get for each extra mouth to feed. The babies get handed off to grandma, momma is back to the parties and dad is nowhere around because he's not needed. Government will take care of everything. A generation has been lost, a people and it's culture have been destroyed and they still do not want to hear the gospel because they do not NEED anything. All because of unbridled welfare. Everything is given to them.

Helping the needy is Biblical, so is "if you don't work, you don't eat" and "He that provideth not for his family is worse than an infidel". BOTH sides. There must be balance.

[...]

This is a very contentious subject that arises often amongst Christians.  Books have been written about it, lectures and sermons have been given.  I have been on both sides of the issue.  What I can tell you is that when my mind was changed, it did not happen as a result of heated debate.  It was a series of one on one conversations, with someone whom I respected a great deal and who took the time and patience to sit down at a table with a Bible  and calmly and kindly speak with me about it.  I would raise questions and he would walk me through each idea and their consequence/resolution in a Biblical way as well as a secular way.

From my experience, public debates about issues such as this, with both sides slinging their best defenses for their positions back and forth, have never resulted in one side being swayed toward the other.  It may happen, but I have never seen it.   

The same man, whom I mentioned above, once spoke to me about changing one's character.  He said that you can choose to engage in or refrain from certain behaviors by committing to doing so, but you cannot simply change your character.  To change your character takes time.  It is a process of changing one's belief system and worldview until it affects your heart and conscience.  

For example, a father might tell his child not to hit their sibling.  The child may choose to obey the father's command because they don't want to get into trouble, but they still don't see anything wrong with it and would still like to hit their sibling.  That is a decision.  However, over time, when the child realizes how hitting their sibling hurts them and is a bad thing to do, they will stop hitting their sibling because their character has changed.

The issue of social justice is connected to a person's particular worldview and must be changed in a similar manner.

Let's make sure that we continue to keep things civil.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Brother Stafford

[Saved41199]

3 hours ago, weary warrior said:

Your heart for people is admirable, and your own experience of receiving help when needed is a blessing. But you are not a welfare queen. You and your husband contributed to this country until life "hit you in the face". But your experience does not match that of everyone else. I was LEO in Alaska for a time, in remote Alaska Native villages. As is my son now. And the abuses to the system, the welfare mentality that has taken away the dignity, the ambition, the self respect, the work ethic of a huge swath of the population is heart breaking. Saved41199, there is always 2 sides to a coin. The is no light without darkness, no white without black. You hold to your side of the coin very strongly, but you need to recognize and admit the other side as well. The abuse of unbridled welfare kills the soul of a people worse than the hunger ravages the body. I have dealt with so many teen girls, multiple generations of them, having babies on a regular basis for the addition to the welfare check they get for each extra mouth to feed. The babies get handed off to grandma, momma is back to the parties and dad is nowhere around because he's not needed. Government will take care of everything. A generation has been lost, a people and it's culture have been destroyed and they still do not want to hear the gospel because they do not NEED anything. All because of unbridled welfare. Everything is given to them.

Helping the needy is Biblical, so is "if you don't work, you don't eat" and "He that provideth not for his family is worse than an infidel". BOTH sides. There must be balance.

So, what is the solution? Women keep having babies they can't or won't raise. Ok..so, contraception. Preferably long term like an IUD. Oh no...that MIGHT kill a fertilized egg...can't have that either. So...what's the solution? In an ideal world of Christian values, women would get married and responsibly have only the children they can reasonably raise...but...it doesn't work that way either...

Education: funding keeps getting cut. With the new idiot in DC, the public education system will end up dismantled. Then what? We will have a bunch of people with no education, no ability to hold down even the most rudimentary job, and then what? Let them just shrivel up and die? 

TANF increases for subsequent children is a strawman...even in Alaska...http://dhss.alaska.gov/dpa/Pages/atap/default.aspx

Alaska Temporary Assistance Program:

• Imposes a 60-month lifetime limit on assistance
• Limits additional assistance for second parents, and reduces benefits for two-parent families during July, August, and September when there are better opportunities for employment
• Requires families to complete a Family Self-Sufficiency Plan, identify self-sufficiency goals and work or participate in activities that will move them toward those goals
• Requires cooperation with the Child Support Services Division in establishing paternity for the children, locating the absent parent, and collecting any child support the absent parent is responsible for paying

• Prohibits making purchases with or accessing cash benefits on EBT cards at any ATMs that are located in bars, liquor stores, gambling or adult entertainment establishments.

 

Income Limits and Maximum Payments
1/1/2016 TO 12/31/2016

Household Size	2	3	4	5	6	Each Addt’l
Income Limit	$1,412	$1,590	$1,767	$1,945	$2,122	$178
Maximum Payment	$821	$923	$1,025	$1,127	$1,229	$102

 

 

Now...care to try to tell me some more? Stop buying the anecdotal rubbish. Here's the law for Alaska. Here's the money they get. Does this really sound like the budget busting line item you think it is? 

Also, how did those counties vote in the last election? Red or Blue? 

 

Edited January 25, 2017 by Saved41199
added thought

[...]

7 minutes ago, Saved41199 said:

So, what is the solution? Women keep having babies they can't or won't raise. Ok..so, contraception. Preferably long term like an IUD. Oh no...that MIGHT kill a fertilized egg...can't have that either. So...what's the solution?

Just for clarification, are you saying that you are pro choice?  I'm just a bit confused.

[Saved41199]

Just now, Brother Stafford said:

Just for clarification, are you saying that you are pro choice?  I'm just a bit confused.

I am simply indicating the inability to have a consistent plan of anything. You want long term contraception, then some fertilized eggs might get flushed out. Personally, I hold to the medical definition of pregnancy, when the egg implants in the uterine lining and the HCG levels in the woman start rising...but what do I know, I've only been pregnant 9 times, birthed 4 children and managed to take 3 home from the hospital. 

I find the entire abortion question problematic. I oppose making it illegal, as I can see a return to the bad old days of back alley abortions and babies thrown in dumpsters. Making anything illegal is not an answer. You see how well prohibition worked. As I have stated before...I believe comprehensive sex education, easy access to contraception, and attempting to change hearts is the solution. Not heavy-handed legislation. I know this view is also unpopular, but it's ok...I'm good with that. I will not tolerate any name calling, or disparaging remarks on my character. I've had a very long time and quite a few experiences in my life to come to my views. I do not do "knee-jerk" opinions on anything. I outgrew that a long time ago. 

 

[...]

4 minutes ago, Saved41199 said:

I oppose making it illegal, as I can see a return to the bad old days of back alley abortions and babies thrown in dumpsters. Making anything illegal is not an answer. You see how well prohibition worked.

Once a pregnancy reachers the definition you described, do you then oppose legalized abortion, or do you still believe it should be legal?  If so, when do you believe it should not be allowed?

Edited January 25, 2017 by Brother Stafford

[Saved41199]

I am opposed to abortion once the pregnancy has been established. However, I have no problem with birth control as properly used, IUD, the pill, etc. Contrary to what has been said, the IUD thins the uterine lining and stops ovulation (no menses, no ovulation). The same with the pill. No menses, no ovulation. 

However...once again...I find it problematic, especially in cases of catastrophic birth defects, genetic defects. I have never had to deal with that, thank God, but I have friends who have had to. Some chose to terminate the pregnancy and others have not. The closest I got was choosing to terminate life support on my already born child when it became obvious that he would never have a life worth living (bilateral Grade IV brain hemorrhage). He was 11 days old and passed from this world in my arms. 

[...]

17 minutes ago, Saved41199 said:

I am opposed to abortion once the pregnancy has been established. However, I have no problem with birth control as properly used, IUD, the pill, etc. Contrary to what has been said, the IUD thins the uterine lining and stops ovulation (no menses, no ovulation). The same with the pill. No menses, no ovulation. 

However...once again...I find it problematic, especially in cases of catastrophic birth defects, genetic defects. I have never had to deal with that, thank God, but I have friends who have had to. Some chose to terminate the pregnancy and others have not. The closest I got was choosing to terminate life support on my already born child when it became obvious that he would never have a life worth living (bilateral Grade IV brain hemorrhage). He was 11 days old and passed from this world in my arms. 

I am attempting to establish your position.  Do you believe that it should be illegal for anyone to get an abortion once pregnancy has been established or do you believe that women should have the legal right to choose?

[Genevanpreacher]

9 minutes ago, Saved41199 said:

I am simply indicating the inability to have a consistent plan of anything. You want long term contraception, then some fertilized eggs might get flushed out. Personally, I hold to the medical definition of pregnancy, when the egg implants in the uterine lining and the HCG levels in the woman start rising...but what do I know, I've only been pregnant 9 times, birthed 4 children and managed to take 3 home from the hospital. 

A. I find the entire abortion question problematic. I oppose making it illegal, as I can see a return to the bad old days of back alley abortions and babies thrown in dumpsters. Making anything illegal is not an answer. You see how well prohibition worked. As I have stated before...I believe comprehensive sex education, easy access to contraception, and attempting to change hearts is the solution. Not heavy-handed legislation. I know this view is also unpopular, but it's ok...I'm good with that. I will not tolerate any name calling, or disparaging remarks on my character.  B. I've had a very long time and quite a few experiences in my life to come to my views. I do not do "knee-jerk" opinions on anything. I outgrew that a long time ago. 

That's quite concerning coming from someone with a name like "Saved...".

My wife and I have had 5 pregnancies and were able to keep 4...and after the second we home-birthed the rest.

A. Messing up humanity by allowing people to stop the continuing development of a human baby is barbarous, and those that were, or may be in the future, choosing to have back-alley abortions, and bring harm to themselves, deserve the just judgement of their actions, BY THEIR OWN CHOICE.

B. "Experience does not a proper decision make" - Sister? Properly it is "what does God's word say" - that is where we get the answer to decisions about abortion. 

Your view does not reflect a follower's 'understanding' view at all, but of a person without knowledge of the truth, and one who may be afraid of the truth.

There, I didn't use one mean name.

Oh yeah, and this quote from you - "Making anything illegal is not an answer."

Such a thing should never be said or thought by a follower of the God who gave us his Law.

"But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners..."