Who Wins ????

[282Mikado]

This passage says nothing about taxes. We need to be careful when reading the Bible to make sure that we read it properly. This passage is talking about tribute, and tribute is a tax upon a conquered country by the people that conquered them.

Is it a tax or not? No, our taxes are not to a conquering country, but it is the law of the land and my follow-on verses from 1 Peter specifically state we should follow those. And if you tell me that taxes are not the law of the land then I refer you to Dr. Dino (Kent Hovind).

[Anon]

So then why did Jesus give Peter money to pay tax?

God says multiple times to obey government, and do what is required, including paying taxes. Not sure what the hangup is here....?

[Guest Guest]

My pastor mentioned this very passage in one of his sermons a while ago and I wish I could remember which one. He said something about that Jesus never said to pay taxes, but that Peter obligated himself to pay the tribute because he said he would.

With that being said, we pay taxes, not because we believe we have to, but because we'd rather stay out of jail. Even though it's not even illegal not to pay taxes, they'll still put you in jail for it. So basically we pay to stay out of jail lol.

What happened to Kent Hovind was not right...he did not HAVE to pay those taxes.

[Guest Guest]

So then why did Jesus give Peter money to pay tax?

God says multiple times to obey government, and do what is required, including paying taxes. Not sure what the hangup is here....?

I'm not sure, either. Oh well, if some people want to skip taxes, it's their problem if they get in trouble for it. :wink

[Anon]

MrsW, I heartily disagree with you and feel that is unbiblical, but obviously people can take passages of Scripture and make them mean whatever they want them to mean...so the debate on the subject probably would go nowhere.

[Guest Guest]

That's fine I wasn't really arguing anyway, I was just offernig another perspective, so I'm sorry if I appeared to be arguing. I really don't care what people believe about this issue.

[HappyChristian]

An interesting take on rendering to Ceasar.....

There are many who have explained it like this: The Jews were under the oppression of the Roman empire, whose emporer was Ceasar. Tribute money was expected to be given to the emporer/empire, and this is what Jesus was commanding. Nothing wrong in that. However...the US was not set up as an empire, it was set up as a Republic. In a Republic (a true one, not the federalized one we have today!), the people are Ceasar...The money we have is not the government's. It's ours. When the government of a republic requires that we give money to them in a tax (not sales tax), they are requiring that Ceasar pay taxes to its subjects. After all, the "officials" in government are actually supposed to be our servants, not the other way around.

Fire when ready. :Green

[Anon]

That could be true...however, other passages require that we obey the government, so even if the government is doing wrong, we obey them unless it causes us to disobey God directly. So we still have to pay taxes according to Scripture.

[282Mikado]

You are absolutely correct, and like you said, we are no longer a true republic. The law does state we must pay taxes. It is Biblical to follow the law unless it causes me to specifically violate God's law personally.

[Guest Guest]

The money we have is not the government's. It's ours.

Whose superscription hath it? :frog

When the government of a republic requires that we give money to them in a tax (not sales tax), they are requiring that Ceasar pay taxes to its subjects. After all, the "officials" in government are actually supposed to be our servants, not the other way around.

"Romans 13:1-7 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour."

Romans wasn't written to the Jews it was written to the Romans so clearly they had to pay taxes too. Here is what strongs says for the word "tribute" in this case. Not a lot of wiggle room, but I know you were not arguing against paying taxes anyway.

5411.
fovro?/font> phoros, for'-os; from 5342; a load (as borne), i.e. (figuratively) a tax (properly, an individual assessment on persons or property; whereas 5056 is usually a general toll on goods or travel):--tribute.

[HappyChristian]

Well, the Susan B. Anthony dollar has a feminist - do we send those to NOW; Ben Franklin wasn't in government, but he was a deist...who do we send those bills to? and the coins rendered to Caesar had the current Caesar, not a bunch of dead guys...it'd be kinda hard to render to them when they're dead!!!! I know, I know...it's just a picture honoring them. But the coins in Rome weren't just honoring old Caesars....

And, as I said - the way this country was founded, the people were the power, not the government. There's a whole lot more to the reasoning that people use when they explain this. It's been a lot of years since I've read on it, though, so I can't answer the way they would. :Green

[Guest Guest]

Well, the Susan B. Anthony dollar has a feminist - do we send those to NOW; Ben Franklin wasn't in government, but he was a diest...who do we send those bills to? and the coins rendered to Caesar had the current Caesar, not a bunch of dead guys...it'd be kinda hard to render to them when they're dead!!!! I know, I know...it's just a picture honoring them. But the coins in Rome weren't just honoring old Caesars....

I didn't ask who had their picture on it. :frog I asked whose superscription was on it. As far as I know no matter who has their picture on it, all "our" money says "United States of America" on it. It is an ownership mark; your money would be mostly worthless without the US goverment.

And BTW all money then didn't have a picture of ceasar on it either, it was just a very common theme.

And, as I said - the way this country was founded, the people were the power, not the government.

LOL Taxes do not mean that the government is in power not the people.

[HappyChristian]

LOL Taxes do not mean that the government is in power not the people.

Um, the income tax system we have today has put us in financial chains, so yes it does (Linclon tried to institute an income tax and the people wouldn't have it due to the fear of becoming enslaved to government...and a graduated income tax is one of the planks of the Communist manifesto)! Try not filling out a tax return (which, according to certain IRS publications is "voluntary") and see how quickly you get into trouble by the government who is not in power through taxes.

[Colin Stolzer]

Do you pay taxes?

What is the point you are trying to make here? What is your angle? If this is the way you truly interpret scripture I'm glad I don't have a Cowboy Preacher. :loco

No I don't pat FIC and I have stood in Fed Dist Court in front of a twelve person jury and was found not guilty of tax evasion according to the law. I will never have to pay FIC the rest of my life because I was willing to stand.

My point is I'm sick of hearing Christians say I won't support this or that because that supports sin but those same Christians will do nothing about it when it comes to supporting the largest organization that funds sin, the Federal Gov't. At best it's being hypocritical and at worst it's just plain cowardess.

I've been totally boycotting for months now. It's rather simple to do as I really don't like there food anyway. This issue just made it all the more easy.

This is a quote of you from the McDonalds thread, so which is it are you being hypocritical by supporting sin in one instance but not in another or are you just afraid of the consequences of standing on God's word, and dealing with the consequences when them come.
I know it's easy to boycott a corporation they aren't going to do anything to you, but to stand against the Gov't that comes with possible consequences.
It's not just about not paying your taxes it has to do with how you vote, who you support in gov't, what are you doing to stand up for the cause of Christ.

C

[Guest Guest]

Um, the income tax system we have today has put us in financial chains, so yes it does

No, financial chains come from people spending more than they can afford to pay. Taxes are not as as bad as all that. I don't enjoy paying them, but who does? The government needs to get it's money somewhere and "we the people" are it. While we are discussing taxes though I do think that the sliding ruler of the tax bracket is very unfair to the rich. I am not rich but there is no reason at all for the rich to pay a higher percentage of their income than I just because they have more money. With all the talk the democrats have been making about "cutting taxes on the poor and middle class" and paying for this by raising taxes on the "rich", our country is coming perilously close to becoming a tyranny of the majority. Simply because much of the populous thinks the rich have "enough money" is no excuse for injustice. The somewhat humorous aspect of this is that most of the democrats railing against the rich as if having money is evil are multi-millionaires themselves. It tends just to be manipulation of the masses for political gain unfortunately... :bonK: