Crucifixion - all the details

[Covenanter]

Yesterday's sermon on Mat. 5:16 titled "The Cross - the Gospel for a time like this." 

Preacher is a church member, from a charismatic background - a position he absolutely repudiates. He tends to preach with an "agenda" rather than preaching the Word.

He began by preaching against RCs, charismatics & evangelicals, perhaps forgetting we are an Independent Evangelical Church, though with a "Baptist" name. 

In an hour-long sermon he spent about 15 minutes spelling out the horrifying, filthy details of flogging, & crucifixion. Details that might be considered pornographic - way beyond what the Scriptures say in Psalm 22 & Isaiah 53, & the crucifixion narratives. 

I felt like interrupting him - "spare us the details - get on with preaching the Word." 

I will be making a strong recommendation to our Pastor that this man does not preach again without teaching on Preaching the WORD. 

What do you folk think? 

[John81]

Some preach to extremes to excite emotions, to play upon feelings, even to entertain curious minds and often to distract from the biblically weak nature of their sermon.

Having not heard the sermon it's hard to comment specifically, but from your description it seems perhaps he went overboard for the sake of sensationalism. In some churches this sort of thing is considered what makes good preaching.

Thinking of this, I can't see how he could preach for 15 minutes on that one aspect without going to extremes. Scripture gives us the facts we need on this point and even with some expounding it should take little time in a sermon to cover that well. Getting to the point, which Scripture focus' upon, and spending some time expounding upon that would seem far more beneficial.

We don't have a lot of guest preachers at our church. Thankfully, out of all the years I've been there only one guest preacher gave a poor sermon. That sermon wasn't unsound, but it was weak, poorly delivered and seemed rather disjointed. That preacher hasn't been invited back.

If the sermon was as bad as you indicate, I agree you should share your concerns with your pastor.

[Alan]

I guess we would have to hear the sermon. Although, from your description, he may have gone overboard. Is there any way via the internet we can listen to the sermon?

[Covenanter]

No = but I took notes, but NOT of all the awful details. 

[John81]

I heard a sermon years ago on the radio and the preacher kept pointing out over and over that Jesus was naked on the cross. There was really no point to him constantly bringing that up, other than to get people to picture Jesus naked on the cross maybe.

He would bring up paintings of Jesus showing Him wearing a "diaper type thing", or with "a length of cloth wound around Him strategically" and then go on and on about how that's not accurate because Jesus was "naked, naked, naked".

That's probably more than enough (sorry if it is) detail to get the idea of how his entire sermon went. From near the beginning all the way to near the end he kept going back to that point and drawing word pictures of it. I never did pick up any actual edifying message from that sermon but unfortunately it's stuck in my mind.

[Covenanter]

I'll put this in smallest print so it cannot be casually read.

Add to naked, loss of bodily functions, destruction of internal organs by scourging, low enough to be spat & urinated on .... for 15 minutes. 

But with no mention of the spiritual suffering - "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

And why should a sponge be on a reed, to reach his mouth, if he were at normal standing height?

No! Keep to the Scripture account. 

 

[John81]

Sounds like that preacher was going for sensationalism rather than scriptural edification.

[Rebecca]

I have heard sermons that were pretty graphic concerning the crucifixion, but I doubt they were like what you're describing. But what has made the most impact on me, personally, was when they describe Jesus, who knew no sin, having all the sin of the world poured on Him...and God turning His back.... I doubt we will ever truly comprehend the emotional and spiritual agony Jesus was in, in the moment He uttered the words "My God, My God..." The physical torment was nothing compared to God turning His back. The sermons on the crucifixion where the focal point is my sins caused Jesus agony and God turning His back on Jesus because of my sins, have made an impact on me more than the physical descriptions ever have or ever will. 

[John81]

I have heard sermons that were pretty graphic concerning the crucifixion, but I doubt they were like what you're describing. But what has made the most impact on me, personally, was when they describe Jesus, who knew no sin, having all the sin of the world poured on Him...and God turning His back.... I doubt we will ever truly comprehend the emotional and spiritual agony Jesus was in, in the moment He uttered the words "My God, My God..." The physical torment was nothing compared to God turning His back. The sermons on the crucifixion where the focal point is my sins caused Jesus agony and God turning His back on Jesus because of my sins, have made an impact on me more than the physical descriptions ever have or ever will. 

​Totally agree! There are times when I'm deep in prayer and I'll consider the fact that MY sins fell upon Jesus, every one of them, and He felt them and it was MY sin causing Him pain and separation from the Father, I can't help but weep and cry out to the Lord in repentance and sorrow.

That's a message all need to hear and grasp.

[Ukulelemike]

I remember hearing a sermon once, though the preacher escapes me, about a long, detailed conversation Jesus had when he was 12, with the Father, telling Jesus who He was and what His job was going to be. Now, I understand kind of why he preached this, since it is the only aspect of jesus' youth mentioned, when he was 12 and was left behind at Jerusalem, and mentioned being about His father's work. But its assuming that He didn't already know.

I am all for careful speculation on what the Bible doesn't specifically lay out, but to make an entire sermon about a conversation that we have no idea if it took place, or even needed to take place, was a bit beyond need. It was entertaining, but not scriptural.

[John81]

I remember hearing a sermon once, though the preacher escapes me, about a long, detailed conversation Jesus had when he was 12, with the Father, telling Jesus who He was and what His job was going to be. Now, I understand kind of why he preached this, since it is the only aspect of jesus' youth mentioned, when he was 12 and was left behind at Jerusalem, and mentioned being about His father's work. But its assuming that He didn't already know.

I am all for careful speculation on what the Bible doesn't specifically lay out, but to make an entire sermon about a conversation that we have no idea if it took place, or even needed to take place, was a bit beyond need. It was entertaining, but not scriptural.

​I've heard similar stories from preachers trying to come up with ways to explain how Jesus came to know who He really was. Few seem to consider the idea Jesus may have knew all along who He was.

When Jesus as left in Jerusalem and Mary and Joseph found Him Jesus clearly asked why they didn't know He must be about His Father's business. However, since Scripture says his parents didn't understand what Jesus was saying, it seems unlikely either of them had previously sat down with Jesus to explain to Him that He was actually the Son of God.

I've heard some preachers come up with some interesting stories about Joseph having been an old man when he married Mary and speculating Joseph died shortly after the "missing Jesus" account since he's not mentioned again. While I suppose such is possible, the idea that Joseph was 60 or 65 when he married Mary, who they usually say was about 14 or 15, and they had Jesus (as the Bible describes), made a run away trip to Egypt, made the trip back to Israel when God told them, managed to have several children together, and the he dropped dead at 72 or 77 when Jesus was 12 seems kind of like a stretch.

 

[Ukulelemike]

​I've heard similar stories from preachers trying to come up with ways to explain how Jesus came to know who He really was. Few seem to consider the idea Jesus may have knew all along who He was.

When Jesus as left in Jerusalem and Mary and Joseph found Him Jesus clearly asked why they didn't know He must be about His Father's business. However, since Scripture says his parents didn't understand what Jesus was saying, it seems unlikely either of them had previously sat down with Jesus to explain to Him that He was actually the Son of God.

I've heard some preachers come up with some interesting stories about Joseph having been an old man when he married Mary and speculating Joseph died shortly after the "missing Jesus" account since he's not mentioned again. While I suppose such is possible, the idea that Joseph was 60 or 65 when he married Mary, who they usually say was about 14 or 15, and they had Jesus (as the Bible describes), made a run away trip to Egypt, made the trip back to Israel when God told them, managed to have several children together, and the he dropped dead at 72 or 77 when Jesus was 12 seems kind of like a stretch.

 

​Well, generally, the Old Man Joseph thing is kind of a Catholic thing, I think, because they don't believe Mary had any more kids, so its easier if Joseph is old and not able.

[John81]

​Well, generally, the Old Man Joseph thing is kind of a Catholic thing, I think, because they don't believe Mary had any more kids, so its easier if Joseph is old and not able.

​That makes sense. I've gone round and round with a few Catholics over the years on this. It doesn't matter what the verses of Scripture say regarding Jesus having siblings, they just repeat the Catholic line that it's a mistranslation and should read "cousins". A few have mentioned that Joseph was too old to have children...and besides, Mary was a perpetual virgin.

[Ukulelemike]

Thats their story and they're sticking to it. its like how someone explains away 1-1/2 days being actually three nights and days, concerning Jesus dying on Friday and raising on Sunday and somehow that's three days and three nights.   If the Bible had just said Three Days, then maybe the explanation of "any part of a day is considered a day", would make a little more sense. but when it says Thee Days and three nights" that's pretty specific. Or the days of creation not really meaning literal days, except that it specifies evening and mornings. Which is exactly what makes a Hebrew day. Too specific to mean anything but just what it says.

[Covenanter]

Pastor asked me (alone) how we got on on Sunday. I said I would never want to hear a sermon like that again - & a few more comments, including his presentation which was with a flat voice so I had to turn the amp up full. 

Then elderly ladies came in & he asked them he asked them.  - "It was good."
What did he preach about? - Don't know - he was reading like reading a letter - from an encyclopedia; he went on for an hour, & half the congregation was asleep. [I took pages of notes - not including the gory details.]

Gives a novel meaning to "good."

We agreed that the children's talk - by another guy - was good & it would have been better to expand that into a sermon. Scripture alone, Christ alone, by faith alone, grace alone, for the sole glory of God.