Russian and ISIS connection

[ThePilgrim]

In an earlier post you wrote:

"John, every time you post you always have a bitter hatred for America and talk about how the intentions of Putin are honorable. Are you deceived? Are you bitter against America? Are you a secret Russion plant planting disinformation? Are you a liberal that blames America for the ills of the world? Not one time in any of your posts have you said anything good about America."

Well I must apologize, you did not call anybody a traitor.  You only insinuated that they might possibly be a foreign agent.  

I probably wrongly assumed that that would apply to anyone holding pretty much the same views of the state of our government and nation as John, which views I hold.

I certainly hardly ever speak a good word about the government of this country and for good reason.  It is a good thing that you are a patriot but it is not a good thing that you seem to be blind to anything that might cause you to question those who are destroying the nation that you love.  I have nothing against you, I just don't understand you.  

Socrates wrote an allegory that might be appropriate in your situation,  The Cave:

Imprisonment in the Cave
Socrates begins by asking Glaucon to imagine a cave where people have been imprisoned from childhood. These prisoners are chained so that their legs and necks are fixed, forcing them to gaze at the wall in front of them and not look around at the cave, each other, or themselves.  Behind the prisoners is a fire, and between the fire and the prisoners is a raised walkway with a low wall, behind which people walk carrying objects or puppets "of men and other living things".  The people walk behind the wall so their bodies do not cast shadows for the prisoners to see, but the objects they carry do ("just as puppet showmen have screens in front of them at which they work their puppets" . The prisoners cannot see any of this behind them and are only able to see the shadows cast upon the cave wall in front of them. The sounds of the people talking echo off the shadowed wall, and the prisoners falsely believe these sounds come from the shadows.

Socrates suggests that the shadows constitute reality for the prisoners because they have never seen anything else; they do not realize that what they see are shadows of objects in front of a fire, much less that these objects are inspired by real living things outside the cave.

Departure from the Cave

Socrates then supposes that one prisoner is freed, being forced to turn and see the fire. The light would hurt his eyes and make it hard for him to see the objects that are casting the shadows. If he is told that what he saw before was not real but that the objects he is now struggling to see are, he would not believe it. In his pain, Socrates continues, the freed prisoner would turn away and run back to what he can see and is accustomed to, that is the shadows of the carried objects. He writes "...it would hurt his eyes, and he would escape by turning away to the things which he was able to look at, and these he would believe to be clearer than what was being shown to him."

Socrates continues: "suppose...that someone should drag him...by force, up the rough ascent, the steep way up, and never stop until he could drag him out into the light of the sun."  The prisoner would be angry and in pain, and this would only worsen when the radiant light of the sun overwhelms his eyes and blinds him.  The sunlight is representative of the new reality and knowledge that the freed prisoner is experiencing.

Slowly, his eyes adjust to the light of the sun. First he can only see shadows. Gradually he can see the reflections of people and things in water and then later see the people and things themselves. Eventually he is able to look at the stars and moon at night until finally he can look upon the sun itself.  Only after he can look straight at the sun "is he able to reason about it" and what it is.

Return to the Cave
Socrates continues, saying that the freed prisoner would think that the real world was superior to the world he experienced in the cave; "he would bless himself for the change, and pity [the other prisoners]" and would want to bring his fellow cave dwellers out of the cave and into the sunlight.

The returning prisoner, whose eyes have become acclimated to the light of the sun, would be blind when he re-enters the cave, just as he was when he was first exposed to the sun.  The prisoners, according to Socrates, would infer from the returning man's blindness that the journey out of the cave had harmed him and that they should not undertake a similar journey. Socrates concludes that the prisoners, if they were able, would therefore reach out and kill anyone who attempted to drag them out of the cave. 

Maybe this would explain the anger you feel for anyone who attempts to tell you the truth.

[Alan]

Thank you for your apology.

 

[Covenanter]

These times remind me of the times of Jeremiah.  Great trouble is coming upon this nation and anyone who speaks of it's sins is a traitor.  Sad indeed.

​I understand you perfectly, Pilgrim. Our nations are NOT Christian countries, & the veneer of Christianity only adds to the guilt. Recent legislation only serves to condemn Christians who are prepared to stand for God's standards. We become traitors against our ungodly nations simply by speaking the truth. 

That applies not just to Christians but to "whistle-blowers." 

Sad indeed. 

[Alimantado]

I think everything you've shared with us there, John, is perfectly consistent with what I've seen you say about yourself on past occasions on this forum over many years. Now, as then, I admire your openness, honesty and candour.

As far as your views on political events are concerned, I've always very much appreciated your taking the time to thoroughly explain your views and, where appropriate, back them up with references to original sources.

[Alan]

Brethren,

This is a public notice. I do not agree with the bashing of the United States of America on this thread that I have started. I for one, am tired of hearing both of you, John81 and Pilgram, downgrade America. Why not tell the truth about Russian aggression? Communist China aggression? Muslim aggression? So far, all you can speak aganist is America and anybody that publicly supports our country. I guess you planned it that way. Get rid of all threads that do not push your own private agenda?

Nor do I appreciate the uncalled slander; being called a traitor, and like most liberals, when you do not agree with them you are called, 'angry,' among other things. Obviously, John81 and Pilgram do not want to sincerely discuss my post. In fact you have taken great pains to try and publicly embrasses me and quite frankly, I do not think that is a Christian spirit at all. Very hypocritical.

Pilgram, to equate John81 to Jeremiah the Prophet and his age, is misconscruing the scriptures. Again, you did it to try and publicly humiliate me.  

Earlier today I have asked Matt to lock this thread so no one else can post. There was deliberately no honest discussion of my post because you did not agree with it and just used this thread to push your anti-America propaganda and condemn me.

Pilgram, instead of quoting Socrates, in a Christian forum, (what audacity!) and, obviously, intended to try and rebuke me, I decided to take my leave with a word of admonition from a man filled with the Holy Spirit instead of the spirit of the devil.

King Solomon wisely said, "As the bird by wandering, as the swallow by flying, so the curse causeless shall not come." Proverbs 26:2 May the Lord give you understanding.

[John81]

Alan,

I expressed no hatred for America and Pilgrim didn't call you a traitor. Pilgrim pointed out that your post seemed to be calling me a traitor in what you said regarding a foreign agent.

If Russian aggression comes about, I'll discuss it. Thus far, it's not. I've spoken of Chinese aggression in several threads for many years. I've pointed out that China is our greatest threat and yet the one most ignore.

A person doesn't have to buy into the Leftist media lies, the twisted words of Leftist politicians or their neo-con kin to love their country. As Ronald Reagan pointed out, our government isn't the solution, it's the problem. Things have only gotten worse since then with the media being fully and openly a mouthpiece and protector of Obama.

There are various external threats, both small and large, to America or American interests around the globe, but Russia isn't currently one of them unless pushed to such. What's going on in Crimea or Eastern Ukraine is of no vital interest to America and doesn't threaten American security.

Of far greater threat to America are the millions of illegal immigrants pouring into America, most of which are Catholic, uneducated and have no desire to assimilate or actually become American. Even so, most ignore this problem which has allowed it to grow and become worse for decades now.

American debt is another great threat which continues to grow with so very little opposition. America is nearing the point where she will be able to pay only upon the interest, with none going against the principle. Being in such debt, especially since China owns most of that and is America's greatest lender, places America in a very vulnerable position should China dump out debt and/or refuse to grant any more loans.

Governmental control of the public schools in America has all but destroyed our once fine education system. How can America compete in this technological age if so many people can barely read or write? We have people voting in this country who have virtually no knowledge or understanding of American history, the Constitution, or even current events beyond who the latest Hollywood star is or what new song is popular.

American culture and society is sinking further into the gutter and many churches are going with the flow. America is the porn capital of the world to the vast point that the American porn industry rakes in more money each year than does Hollywood. Things are shown and said on open TV that once would have been rated "R" in a movie and never allowed on TV. Millions of children live in homes with only one parent. Divorce and remarriage is rampant and even a problem among Christians.

Christians if foreign countries are coming to America as missionaries. Many of these are coming from churches founded by Christian Americans years ago.

What's going on in Ukraine and Crimea pales as a problem for America in comparison to all these issues which are by far greater threats to America, and growing threats since so many are ignoring them or making them worse.

Russia and Ukraine can work out their own problems. The question is, will America get focused and work out her problems or will her internal issues rot her so badly she can no longer stand? We are a small church in a small rural town but over the past several years we've been making efforts to address what we can right here. We have been engaging in community service projects and sharing the Gospel as we go. On the grand scale it's a small thing, but doing so is having an impact here. We have even more planned this year. We have a local youth mission 'trip' this year that will be "camping" at the church while doing works to help the needy in town sharing the Gospel with them.

What if American Christians gave some needed focus to helping and loving our neighbors for awhile? Might not that be a blessing to our country while serving our Lord as He has called us to do?

[DaveW]

Well, I have to say, for people who love the USA there is an amazing amount of anti - USA posting on this site, and of late a lot of praise for the Russians. 

I make no judgement based upon that, but I do state the observation from one who has no stake in the issue.

[Alimantado]

To me it looks like John is pointing out problems with the USA out of love for it--if one can do that for their brother then why not their country?

 

[John81]

Well, I have to say, for people who love the USA there is an amazing amount of anti - USA posting on this site, and of late a lot of praise for the Russians. 

I make no judgement based upon that, but I do state the observation from one who has no stake in the issue.

​It's not praise for Russia to point out they have made no moves to take over Ukraine, the Baltic States or invade Eastern Europe.

It's good for Russia they have a president who puts their nation first and promotes Christianity (even if it's of the tainted Russian Orthodox variety). That said, I have no outright praise for Putin or Russia. Were it not for Obama and his cronies in the media making an issue of things neither Putin or Russia would be much noticed.

Hopefully America will again have a president that will put American interests first and promote Christianity (hopefully biblical Christianity).

I'm an American and my concern is what's best for America. It's not best for America to build tensions, risk war, waste time and money on matters between Russia and Ukraine. Whatever happens there isn't going to threaten America or help America.

Hopefully we will soon have a better president and perhaps even some real Americans in the congress, both of which may be willing to focus upon and work for real solutions to the true threats on America.

It's not anti-American to point out the bad moves of our government; actually, that's very pro-American; just as when I pointed out the ills of the Carter presidency and supported the candidacy of Reagan.

May the Gospel of Christ prevail in America, and in Australia too, and may our nations spread that saving grace abroad.

[DaveW]

Well, I have to say, for people who love the USA there is an amazing amount of anti - USA posting on this site, and of late a lot of praise for the Russians. 

I make no judgement based upon that, but I do state the observation from one who has no stake in the issue.

 

[Covenanter]

The Russion government has a long connection between terrorist organizations that hate America and Israelhttp://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/asia/item/20321-the-russian-roots-of-isis

Check it out. 

​Don't believe everything you read on the Internet .... you might end up believing this:

 

The War on Terrorism is Terrorism - How the US Helped Create Al Qaeda and ISIS

 

Which I do. It IS common knowledge that Al Quaeda was effective created by the CIA to oppose Russian activity in Afghanistan, & that bin Laden & Co. used America for their own interests - which were not pro-US. 

It is also less common knowledge that Britain & US combined to overthrow Iranian democracy & install the Shah & his totalitarian government. 

We love our countries, which is why we criticise. Constructive foreign policy will build friends, not enemies.  

[Alimantado]

Well, I have to say, for people who love the USA there is an amazing amount of anti - USA posting on this site, and of late a lot of praise for the Russians. 

I make no judgement based upon that, but I do state the observation from one who has no stake in the issue.

 

​Saying that comments are 'anti-USA' is judging their intent. And saying that there's an 'amazing' amount of them coming from someone who loves the USA is to insinuate that actually they don't love the USA. After all, why make an observation if one doesn't think it has any bearing on anything?

Basically you're saying "hmmmm there's a funny amount of USA hating coming from folks who claim to love the place" and then claiming that it's just a funny, random observation. But we're all old enough to know that saying things like that is casting aspersions.

Ditto with Alan's earlier comments: he asked the ridiculously loaded question "Are you a secret Russion plant planting disinformation?" to John and then jumped all over Pilgrim when he called it an accusation. Sticking a question mark at the end of your sentence is a neat tactic for denigrating someone while denying that's what you're doing, hence politicians and commentators do it all time. But we all know what's really going on.

[DaveW]

Well, I have to say, for people who love the USA there is an amazing amount of anti - USA posting on this site, and of late a lot of praise for the Russians. 

I make no judgement based upon that, but I do state the observation from one who has no stake in the issue.

 

[Alimantado]

Basically you're saying "hmmmm there's a funny amount of USA hating coming from folks who claim to love the place" and then claiming that it's just a funny, random observation. But we're all old enough to know that saying things like that is casting aspersions.

 

 

[DaveW]

Well, I have to say, for people who love the USA there is an amazing amount of anti - USA posting on this site, and of late a lot of praise for the Russians. 

I make no judgement based upon that, but I do state the observation from one who has no stake in the issue.