A Great Delusion...

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Jesus said He is the door, and that if any man enter in through Him he would find rest.

If people receive not a love for the truth, but instead trust their wickedness, then why would the door be open to those who reject its invitation after a set period of time.

In Noah's day, God said His spirit would not always strive with man.  Noah preached 120 years while building the ark.  Once the door closed, was it re-opened for those who rejected the preaching those 120 years?  Of course, the answer is no.

I think when the door is closed at the time of the Rapture, it will be history repeating itself.  Deja vu. for all those who had the chance and rejected the Son.

[Jim_Alaska]

Thanks for your thoughts on this NN and SFIC. This does help a bit and is in line with my thoughts on this subject. But it still does not address the idea that no one can be saved that has ever once heard the Gospel and not been saved because of it.

 

Here is a "for instance: who are these people spoken of in this verse?: " Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

 

These are OBviously those that have been saved during the reign of the Anti-Christ, which of necessity is after the Rapture..

[No Nicolaitans]

To me, the key is this...

 

2 Thessalonians 2:10
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

 

This tells me that they willfully rejected salvation. It was offered and rejected...their minds and hearts were made up. It just happens at a time when God is bringing things to a finality. I believe that it's never too late for someone today. God knows if they will be saved or not, but we don't...to us, there should always be hope today.

 

However, when the Tribulation Period begins, God is bringing things to a close for this world and its system. Time will be short. Just as God knows who will be saved today, he knows who will be saved during the Tribulation. Like you, I also believe that there will be people saved throughout the Tribulation period. However, those who have willfully (and in finality) rejected salvation...they've heard the gospel; otherwise, they couldn't "receive it not"...those who have chosen to reject Christ will accept the Antichrist as their god. 

 

I'll go out on a limb here and say this...

 

I'm not sure that this will apply to EVERYONE who has heard the gospel, but not accepted Christ...or if it applies to only those who have heard the gospel AND in their minds and hearts have made the conscious decision to absolutely reject Christ and his offer of salvation. In other words, there may be some who hear the gospel, but in their hearts haven't completely rejected Christ. Perhaps there's still hope for them? I don't know. 

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Not sure... the "received not a love for the truth" tells me they may have heard the Gospel, but would not hear it.

"I'll believe it, but go away, and I'll send for thee at a more convenient time". Sound familiar?

The thing is, our timetable is not God's timetable. I sincerely believe that, for those who have heard the Gospel but put it off until a more convient time, will be sent strong delusions. They heard, but the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life were more important to them than their eternal destiny.

[Jim_Alaska]

Thanks NN. That's more in line with the way I was thinking of those Scriptures. Of course that doesn't mean it's cast in concrete, but does seem to line up with God being a gracious God and not willing that any should perish.

[Jim_Alaska]

Good answers all, thanks for the input and thoughtful responses.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Now is the accepted time...

Why was there such an urgency in the Apostle's plea? Why no message saying "Just remember the Word I preach, and trust Christ after the Church is removed?"

[John81]

Now is the accepted time...

Why was there such an urgency in the Apostle's plea? Why no message saying "Just remember the Word I preach, and trust Christ after the Church is removed?"

The urgency is because none of us knows when our time is up. This heartbeat could be our last. If we feel the conviction of the Holy Ghost we should immediately respond by accepting Christ. To put off such is to risk hardening our hearts, making it harder to be born again in Christ later, to risk Christ returning while we are yet lost, to risk dying while yet lost.

 

Whether considering the end-times or just right now, now is always the time of salvation for there may never be another time we can be saved.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

To Brother Jim more specifically, and to others more generally,

 

I do have some contributing thoughts of response, if I may share them.  However, at present I lack the time to type and post them.  If you are willing to receive them and can wait a bit, I will try to deliver them before this week is ended.

 

Thank you for your consideration in this matter.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

The urgency is because none of us knows when our time is up. This heartbeat could be our last. If we feel the conviction of the Holy Ghost we should immediately respond by accepting Christ. To put off such is to risk hardening our hearts, making it harder to be born again in Christ later, to risk Christ returning while we are yet lost, to risk dying while yet lost.
 
Whether considering the end-times or just right now, now is always the time of salvation for there may never be another time we can be saved.

while it is true that life is but a vapor, it is also true that the Apostles believed and hoped for the Second Coming in their lifetime.

I believe the urgency was also in the belief and hope of His soon return to take His children Home.

[No Nicolaitans]

Thanks NN. That's more in line with the way I was thinking of those Scriptures. Of course that doesn't mean it's cast in concrete, but does seem to line up with God being a gracious God and not willing that any should perish.

 

Well...if I were asked to give a definite position at this point in time, my belief would line up with SFIC's. In that, if one has heard the gospel...the true gospel...and rejected it, they will be given the strong delusion, believe the lie of Antichrist, and seal their fate in doing so.

 

While I most definitely believe and agree that God is more gracious than we can comprehend and not willing that any should perish, I also believe that salvation is offered to "whosoever will". Only those who "will" are saved.

 

That's why I believe it's important to recognize the fact that when this happens (the end of the age), God is wrapping up his plan for this world and getting ready to start the kingdom. Time will be short. Salvation will have been offered to "whosoever will", because God isn't willing that any should perish; however, if they have made their decision to reject Christ...whether they do so as a die-hard atheist or as someone who we may view as being "on the fence"...time will be short, and they will have forfeited any chance of salvation. They will have made their choice...and they will be without excuse. 

 

Those who are saved after the rapture and during the Tribulation...in my current view...will be those who have never heard the true gospel. Even today, there are multitudes here in the USA who haven't heard the gospel...with churches everywhere...untold numbers have never heard the truth.

 

We may scoff at that and think it's impossible, but it's true. I personally know a man (he's a pastor) in his 70's. He was saved when he joined the Army in his early 20's. His testimony is that his Sergeant asked him if he knew Jesus. To which he replied, "No, is he a member in our platoon?" And that was +/- 50 years ago.

 

Anyway, that's my view as I understand what I read...though I always reserve the right to be wrong. 

[John81]

Well...if I were asked to give a definite position at this point in time, my belief would line up with SFIC's. In that, if one has heard the gospel...the true gospel...and rejected it, they will be given the strong delusion, believe the lie of Antichrist, and seal their fate in doing so.

 

While I most definitely believe and agree that God is more gracious than we can comprehend and not willing that any should perish, I also believe that salvation is offered to "whosoever will". Only those who "will" are saved.

 

That's why I believe it's important to recognize the fact that when this happens (the end of the age), God is wrapping up his plan for this world and getting ready to start the kingdom. Time will be short. Salvation will have been offered to "whosoever will", because God isn't willing that any should perish; however, if they have made their decision to reject Christ...whether they do so as a die-hard atheist or as someone who we may view as being "on the fence"...time will be short, and they will have forfeited any chance of salvation. They will have made their choice...and they will be without excuse. 

 

Those who are saved after the rapture and during the Tribulation...in my current view...will be those who have never heard the true gospel. Even today, there are multitudes here in the USA who haven't heard the gospel...with churches everywhere...untold numbers have never heard the truth.

 

We may scoff at that and think it's impossible, but it's true. I personally know a man (he's a pastor) in his 70's. He was saved when he joined the Army in his early 20's. His testimony is that his Sergeant asked him if he knew Jesus. To which he replied, "No, is he a member in our platoon?" And that was +/- 50 years ago.

 

Anyway, that's my view as I understand what I read...though I always reserve the right to be wrong. 

Americans today are more biblically illiterate than any other time in our history. There are countless people in this country, which many consider the most Christian country in the world, who have never opened a Bible, many without even a Bible in their homes, who have never heard who Jesus really is.

 

Add to this prOBlem the fact that most American Christians are only secular Christians, not born again Christians. These secular Christians, pastors, churches, put forth warped, twisted and false views of the Bible, God, Jesus and salvation.

 

It's little wonder American society is in the gutter and it's so difficult to talk with many Americans about the Gospel.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

The part about not being able to be saved after the rapture has me especially confused. Why would the rapture have anything to do with whether or not a person can be saved? Anyone have scripture that would clarify this idea?

 

Pastor Scott said this: "if you heard a clear presentation of the gospel and willfully rejected it, and thus did not get saved before the rapture, then you cannot get saved thereafter." He said he didn't believe this, but the very idea is what I am confused about. To me this would be like saying that once you hear a clear presentation of the Gospel at any time and you reject it, you cannot be saved. I find no Scriptural prescedent for this.

 

I do understand the part about some being given a strong delusion, but have always thought of this as pertaining to those who have heard the truth and refused it with finality, therefore God sends strong delusion so that they are confirmed in their unbelief.

 

 

Well, I was not quite able to present my thoughts and responses before the end of last week.  However, I do have a short amount of time at the present.

 

First, before I present any other thought or response, I desire to repeat and emphasize my understanding and position concerning the timing for the application of 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12.  An understanindg concerning my position concerning this timing (I believe) will provide an important context for my thoughts and responses.   I myself do not believe that this passage applies and refers to the moment of the rapture, and thus I myself do not believe that it extends over the entirety of the seven-year Tribulation Period (which I do believe is a literal, future seven-year period wherein the Lord our God will pour out His judging wrath upon this entire world).  Rather, I myself believe that 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 applies and refers to the mid-point of the Tribulation Period, beginning with the moment wherein the Antichrist enthrones himself in the Temple of God at Jerusalem, proclaims himself to be deity, sends forth his number throughout the world to be taken by all of humanity, and requires that all worship him as deity; and thus I myself believe that 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 only applies and extends over the later 3.5 years of the Tribulation Period.  Throughout the first 30 years of my life I was taught that this passage applied to the moment of Rapture, and I myself held to that position.  However, approximately 15 years ago, I was challenged by a position that I had never encountered previously -- that not a single Gentile, but only Jews alone would be saved during the entirety of the Tribulation Period (a position with which I do not have agreement).  2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 was employed as one passage in support of this newly encountered position; therefore, I engaged in a new study of that passage (as well as others).  Through this new study of 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12, I changed position concerning the timing of its application.

 

With that contextual position of belief in mind, I present that I also believe that God's work of "strong delusion" as presented in 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 will be a universal work that absolutely includes and encompasses every single individual that is an unbeliever at that mid-point moment of the Tribulation Period.  Brother Jim, you asked the question -- "Why would the rapture have anything to do with whether or not a person can be saved?"  In relation to my above presented position, I would have to answer a slightly changed question, that is -- Why would the mid-point of the Tribulation Period have anything to do with whether or not a person can be saved?  My answer -- Simply because the Lord our God in His Holy Word has indicated that at that time He Himself will send a strong delusion upon unbelievers so that they all shall be damned (please note the word "all" in 2 Thessalonians 2:12).  Actually, I believe that greater questions might be -- Why does the Lord our God choose to send such a "strong delusion" at all, and why does He choose to send it at the particular time indicated in the passage?

 

Brother Jim, you stated further -- "Pastor Scott said this: 'if you heard a clear presentation of the gospel and willfully rejected it, and thus did not get saved before the rapture, then you cannot get saved thereafter.' He said he didn't believe this, but the very idea is what I am confused about. To me this would be like saying that once you hear a clear presentation of the Gospel at any time and you reject it, you cannot be saved. I find no Scriptural prescedent for this."

 

First, I wish to respond gently and gracious to the latter comments of this quote.  Concerning the matter of Scriptural precedent, throughout God's Word we find a record on a number of occasions that the Lord our God did a work which had no previous precedent before that time (consider the world-wide flood, the virgin birth, the crucifixion of God, etc.).  In addition, throughout the prophetic utterances of God's Word we a find that there a number of works that the Lord our God proclaims that He shall do which also have no previous precedent (consider some of the judgments recorded in the book of the Revelation, etc.).  Concerning your thought that "this would be like saying that once you hear a clear presentation of the Gospel at any time and you reject it, you cannot be saved," I must present the following disagreement.  The Lord our God does not indicate that He performs His work of "strong delustion" at any time.  He only indicates that He shall do this work of sending a "strong delusion" at the specific time-period to which 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 applies.  Now, I would present that this passage does not actually say anything about an individual's having heard or not having heard a clear gospel message.  It actually only indicates that those who have not received and believed the gospel by the point in time (whatever that point in time is) shall experience God's work of "strong delusion" upon their hearts and minds.

 

Now, in responding the opening portion of your above comment, I stated what I did because it was the position that I had been taught for many years and that I also held throughout those years.  That position does hold that the applied timing for 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 shall begin with the moment of the pre-tribulational Rapture.  However, that position also recognizes that the book of the Revelation seems to indicate that many shall be saved throughout at least the beginning portion of the Tribulation Period.  Therefore, that position seeks to reconcile an apparent contradiction between God's work of "strong delusion" upon unbelievers and the Biblical indication that some unbelievers will yet get saved.  It develops the reconciliation by presented three classes of people at the moment the Rapture --

 

     (1) Believers, who all shall depart in the Rapture

     (2) Unbelievers who had previously heard a clear message of the gospel and had rejected it, who then would experience God's work of "strong delusion"

          and no longer have an opportunity to be saved any time throughout the Tribulation Period.

    (3) Unbelievers who had not previous heard a clear message of the gospel, who might yet have an opportunity to be saved throughout the Tribulation    

          Period.  

 

(Note: In order to support the possibility of the third class, a reference is generally made to the phrase "they received not" in 2 Thessalonians 2:10.  Then from this phrase it is generally argued that the idea of "received not" means "to have been given a definite encounter with the truth of the gospel, but to have willfully rejected it in deciding not to receive it through faith.)

 

As I have already stated, I was taught this position and once held to it.  However, I no longer hold to this position.  What brought me to a point of change?  As I studied 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12, I could not find any clear reference to an individual's having heard a clear message of the gospel, or not.  Rather, I found that the statements of God's Word in this passage concerning God's work of "strong delusion" were grammatically presented as being both universal and absolute.  Yet I also fully recognized the teaching of the book of the Revelation that many unbelievers (of both Jews and Gentiles) will come to faith and salvation during at least the beginning portion of the Tribulation Period.  So then, I also had a question concerning the reconciliation of these Biblical truths.  Ah, but then I further noted that 2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 places a great deal of emphasis  upon the Antichrist's working of "all power and signs and lying wonders" (a reference to the working of miracles that deceive); and I recognized that Antichrist's miracle working occurs, not at the beginning of the Tribulation Period, but at the mid-point when he proclaims himself to be deity.  Furthermore, I noted the phrase "working of Satan" in relation to the Antichrist's miracle working; and I recognized that the Antichrist, although he certainly follows after the ways of Satan previously, is actually possessed by Satan at the mid-point of the Tribulation Period.  Finally, I noted that the phrase "with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish" is employed in relation to the Antichrist's miracle working; and I recognized that this would best apply to the Antichrist's great deception in proclaiming himself to be deity and in calling for all the world to worship him as such, which deception he propagates at the mid-point of the Tribulation Period.  Thus I changed my position concerning the applied timing for God's work of "strong delusion" as presented in this passage from the moment of the Rapture to the mid-point of the Tribulation Period.  As such, this understanding for the applied timing for God's work of "strong delusion" allows for multitudes of unbelievers to be saved during the first 3.5 years of the Tribulation Period, without any "strong delusion" being present to prevent it whatsoever.  In addition, this understanding also seems (to me) to blend well with the teaching of Revelation 14:9-11 that any and all who worship the Antichrist and take his number shall without any exceptions suffer under God's eternal wrath in the lake of fire.  As such, this would seem to indicate that not a single genuine believer at the time will take the number and worship the Antichrist.  As such, this would also seem to indicate that any and all who do take the number and worship the Antichrist will from the moment forward no longer be able to get saved (else God's Word stand in contradiction to itself).  In all, it appears to me that the mid-point of the Tribulation Period, wherein the Antichrist performs his deceiving miracles by the power of Satan, proclaims himself to be deity, sends for his number for all to take, and requires all to worship him as deity, will be the distinctively dividing moment between all believers and unbelievers upon the earth.

 

I pray that these thoughts and responses will be of some help to you, and not simply create more confusion.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

In Noah's day, God said His spirit would not always strive with man.  Noah preached 120 years while building the ark.  Once the door closed, was it re-opened for those who rejected the preaching those 120 years?  Of course, the answer is no.

I think when the door is closed at the time of the Rapture, it will be history repeating itself.  Deja vu. for all those who had the chance and rejected the Son.

 

Brother ROBey,

 

I very much appreciate this example that you have presented from Noah's day concerning the moment when the door of the ark was shut.  I believe that this example is very well suited to the matter of discussion especially since it also occurred during a time when the Lord our God poured out His judging wrath upon the whole world.  However, in accord with that which have presented in my above posting, I would contend that the "door of salvation" is not actually shut at the moment of the Rapture, but at the mid-point of the Tribulation Period.  It is also worthy to note that during the first 3.5 years of the Tribulation Period, the gospel will be preached mightily by the 144,00 and by the two prophets, even as Noah preached for the 120 years before the closing of the door in the ark, although a bit more extensively that Noah would have been able to do since he was only one preacher and also had to been engaged in ark-building.  Again, it is also worthy to note that during the first 3.5 years of the Tribulation Period, the Lord our God will pour forth enough of His judging wrath over the world for mankind to recognize that His wrath had come (See Revelation 6:15-17), and yet that the majority of mankind will willfully refuse to repent of their sinfulness even in the very face this great wrath (See Revelation 9:20-21).

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Well, it all has to do with the timing of revealing the Antichrist for who he really is...

1. When the Antichrist is revealed as "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8), it is after he has proclaimed himself to be God (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4).
2. He is empowered by Satan with powers, signs, and lying wonders...which he uses to deceive those who perish (2 Thessalonians 2:9-10). 
3. Why are they deceived by the Antichrist, and why will they perish? Because they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved (2 Thessalonians 2:10).
4. Since they refused salvation, God sends them strong delusion to believe a lie. (2 Thessalonians 2:11).
5. Why does God send them strong delusion so that they will be damned and perish? Because they didn't believe the truth (rejected salvation) and had pleasure in unrighteousness (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

After the Antichrist is revealed as "the man of sin"-"the son of perdition"-"that Wicked", he will deceive the poor souls (who have rejected God's truth) with his powers, signs, and wonders. He will have proclaimed himself to be God, and I believe the powers, signs, and wonders will give that proclamation credence with those who have rejected God's truth (salvation), and they will believe the lie that he is God (?).

 

As it is in man's nature to worship, they will then worship the Antichrist...accepting his mark...sealing their doom and fate.

 

That's how I see it...not saying that I'm right, though I believe I am.   

 

Brother Dan,

 

In considering your postings throughout this thread, it appears that you and would not be in agreement concerning the applied timing for God's work of "strong delusion" as presented in 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12.  In addition, although I would have a great deal of agreement with that which you have presented in the above quote, I would disagree and contend that the "revealing" of the Antichrist and the "deceiving work (through miracles)" of the Antichrist occur at different times the first being at the beginning of the seven year Tribulation Period very shortly after the Rapture and the second being at the mid-point of the Tribulation Period when he is directly possessed by Satan.  Just some thoughts for consideration.