Dispensations

[Covenanter]

It wasn't a definition, it was a comment.  Did you even read the entire comment, or are you just ignoring it and selectively "picking"?
Had the Gospel of Grace been clearly "witnessed" in the Old Testament then there would have been no need for the Apostle Paul.
I sense a general discrediting of the Apostle Paul.  Some elevate Peter as the one who "built the Church" and diminish Paul.

Paul's revelation was unique in that it was specific to him AFTER the other Apostles. He insisted, with regard to the mystery that the other Apostles and prophets had the same revelation.
Ephesians 3:3-7

The mystery certainly was and is the unity of Jew and Gentile in the Church through the Gospel. God's insistence on racial purity in the OT, under the old covenant, led to the expectation that the church of Jesus Christ would be a Jewish sect, as it was in the early chapters of Acts. Peter was given a special vision with regard to Cornelius. Then he was happy to eat with uncircumcised, and to baptise them uncircumcised.

It seems clear that Paul was among the first to eat with Gentile believers without scruples about the Law for himself, though with concern that he would not give offense to weaker brethren.

In Ephesians 4:1-6 he stresses Christian unity, including one baptism - a common baptism for Jew and Gentile on confession of faith in Christ.

[AVBibleBeliever]

Okay...now show where works and/or the law WERE required for salvation.

Answer the following questions.

 

What would have happened to Noah if he believed God was going to flood the world and he didn't build the Ark?

 

What would happen to Abraham if he believed God but didn't leave Ur (Syria)?

 

What would have happened to JacOB and his family if they believed God about going down to Egypt but didn't go?

 

What would Rahab have done if she believed the spies and didn't put the scarlet thread in her window?

 

What if the Shunammite woman after getting a child from the Lord, did not go and get the Prophet when her Child suffered and died on her knees?

 

What would have happened to Naaman if he believed the prophet of God but didn't dip himself 7 times in the Jordan?

 

What would have happened to Israel if they received the commandments of God and didn't keep them?

 

After answering the questions above what part did their work play in their receiving the grace of God? 

 

and how many of these above do you think you will see in eternity? 

 

If any why?

[AVBibleBeliever]

this was not meant to be a post of argument but it seems that is what it has evolved into.

 

Ken blue, BTW NO NIC, is not a hyper-dispensationalist.

 

you know so little about dispensations of the word of God you fail to know what hyper-dispensations are and who practices it.

[AVBibleBeliever]

Rebekah was from Padanaram,  A city in Modern Day Iraq

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddan_Aram

God's word says he is a Syrian

 

So who you going to believe God's word as found in the AV or wikipedia?

 

or are you going to continue to believe God's word contains an error?

[weary warrior]

I'll repost, perhaps some missed reading the post (or only read "selective" parts thereof).

 

I think you will find, if you study the verses that you reference in Ephesians in their full context, that they are talking about the mystery of the church, which mystery was revealed to Paul, not the mystery of Salvation.

[AVBibleBeliever]

I think you will find, if you study the verses that you reference in Ephesians in their full context, that they are talking about the mystery of the church, which mystery was revealed to Paul, not the mystery of Salvation.

there are a few mysteries Paul speaks of.

[weary warrior]

Answer the following questions.

 

What would have happened to Noah if he believed God was going to flood the world and he didn't build the Ark?

 

What would happen to Abraham if he believed God but didn't leave Ur (Syria)?

 

What would have happened to JacOB and his family if they believed God about going down to Egypt but didn't go?

 

What would Rahab have done if she believed the spies and didn't put the scarlet thread in her window?

 

What if the Shunammite woman after getting a child from the Lord, did not go and get the Prophet when her Child suffered and died on her knees?

 

What would have happened to Naaman if he believed the prophet of God but didn't dip himself 7 times in the Jordan?

 

What would have happened to Israel if they received the commandments of God and didn't keep them?

 

After answering the questions above what part did their work play in their receiving the grace of God? 

 

and how many of these above do you think you will see in eternity? 

 

If any why?

 

 

What would have happened if they had NOT believed in faith, but had just OBeyed reluctantly out of fear of physical punishment? Would they have escaped the physical catastrophe? Yes. Would they have still received grace?

 

No.

 

Were there Jews who kept the Sabbath and the feasts simply so they would not get stoned to death, not because they believed God? Yes. Were they imputed righteousness? No. So did the Law save them? No.

 

So the Law does not save.

 

Noah received grace in the eyes of the Lord way before he ever built an ark.

 

Maybe this is where Romans 8:29 comes into play.

 

Ro 8:29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

He, being God, knew through his foreknowledge how that Noah and the others would believe, so he knew enough to entrust a physical imperative to someone who would act upon their faith. The action was a natural result of the faith, not a catalyst to bond with the faith turning it into salvation, like a holy JB Weld.

[weary warrior]

there are a few mysteries Paul speaks of.

 

Yes, but you quoted this particular passage, and it clearly refers to the church, not salvation.

[No Nicolaitans]

Answer the following questions. Okay, but this is pointless to answer hypothetical situations.

 

What would have happened to Noah if he believed God was going to flood the world and he didn't build the Ark?

 

But he did build the ark, and he built it by faith...not to be justified, but because he believed God.

 

What would happen to Abraham if he believed God but didn't leave Ur (Syria)?

 

But he did leave Ur, and he left by faith...not to be justified, but because he believed God.

 

What would have happened to JacOB and his family if they believed God about going down to Egypt but didn't go?

 

But he did go, and he went by faith...not to be justified, but because he believed God.

 

What would Rahab have done if she believed the spies and didn't put the scarlet thread in her window?

 

But she did put out the scarlet thread...not to be justified, but because she believed what was told to her.

 

What if the Shunammite woman after getting a child from the Lord, did not go and get the Prophet when her Child suffered and died on her knees?

 

But she did go...see above.

 

What would have happened to Naaman if he believed the prophet of God but didn't dip himself 7 times in the Jordan?

 

But he did go...see above.

 

What would have happened to Israel if they received the commandments of God and didn't keep them?

 

We do know what happened to Israel for not keeping the commandments. They were cursed and lost their land...just like God said would happen.

 

After answering the questions above what part did their work play in their receiving the grace of God? 

 

Their works played no part in receiving the grace of God. Their work showed that they believed what God said (faith), so they acted on it.

 

and how many of these above do you think you will see in eternity? 

 

I think I will see the ones who trusted God for their justification and not their works.

 

If any why?

 

See above.

 

AV, there is nothing that says the "works" that the people above did granted them salvation. Those people acted on their faith...just as we do today.

 

Ken blue, BTW NO NIC, is not a hyper-dispensationalist.

 

I never said Mr. Blue was a hyper-dispensationalist. 

 

you know so little about dispensations of the word of God you fail to know what hyper-dispensations are and who practices it.

 

Okay...

[MountainChristian]

God's word says he is a Syrian

 

So who you going to believe God's word as found in the AV or wikipedia?

 

or are you going to continue to believe God's word contains an error?

1. Does Syrian mean from Syria? Or a system set up by a man? 

Isaiah 23:13 Behold the land of the Chaldeans; this people was not, till the Assyrian founded it for them that dwell in the wilderness: they set up the towers thereof, they raised up the palaces thereof; and he brought it to ruin.

2. If they disagree The Holy Bible

3. I do not believe the Bible contains any errors. Doesn't matter what I believe, God's word is always true.  

 

AV, I didn't mean to offend you. 

[wretched]

Or...it could make those who understand that the Bible is clear (even in the Old Testament) that works have never, do never, and will never have absolutely anything whatsoever, in any shape, form, or fashion...to do with salvation...it could make those who understand this, see that the Bible is clear that righteousness comes only by grace through faith. The New Testament even tells us this in Hebrews 11. How those who propose a work's-based salvation in the OT (and the future) can miss this is beyond me. By faith...by faith...by faith!

 

The Old Testament saints weren't regenerated by the Holy Spirit as far as the biblical record shows; however, they believed what God said, and it was accounted unto them for righteousness. Today, we believe what God said (the record of his Son), and it's accounted unto us for righteousness. Those Old Testament saints who believed God were only taken to heaven after Christ's death, burial, and resurrection; therefore, their righteousness (and salvation) is directly tied to the gospel.

 

And I'm sorry to disagree with you, but the visions, signs, and wonders didn't make people believe...or keep them believing...

 

Numbers 14:11
And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?

 

Deuteronomy 1:31-32
31   And in the wilderness, where thou hast seen how that the LORD thy God bare thee, as a man doth bear his son, in all the way that ye went, until ye came into this place.
32   Yet in this thing ye did not believe the LORD your God,

 

Mr. Blue said that the main subject of the Old Testament was about a coming kingdom. No, the Old Testament is about Jesus through and through.

 

Sadly, those who hold to hyper-dispensationalism stumble at the same stumblingstone as Israel...they sadly can't see the simplicity of salvation by grace through faith in the Old Testament, because they can't systematically connect the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ to the Old Testament...so they try to make works become an element of salvation. The promised redeemer is there...throughout the Old Testament...but people stumble over it.

 

Remember NN, I came into this argument late. Nowhere have I (nor anyone else in this thread) stated that keeping the law was necessary nor that works were necessary.

 

However it is Scriptural true that prior to the pouring out of the Spirit, any and all true faith was demonstrated by works as opposed to our time in which the Spirit's regeneration is the demonstration of faith in the Gospel.

 

The issue also isn't your last statement about stumbling, the issue is that noone in the OT had any idea what you are talking about or the OT would clearly state that somewhere. You are reading hindsight and thinking the idea could be commonly known when it was in fact completely unknown (a mystery). No stumbling, just unknown. Believing God when He showed Himself to man was the only thing known at the time.

 

Come on folks, think for yourselves about it and put away the simplistic fairy tales. Salvation as we know it since Pentecost didn't even exist in the OT. Those saints had to stay faithful until death. NOT necessarily workful, but FAITHful.

 

Oh and yes, during the tribulation, it will be the same way. There will be no Spirit regeneration, no born again, no saved (as we know it). Those saints will once again have to keep themselves until the day of redemption at death but they too will have the helps of real signs, real visions, real miracles. Not the emotional charismatic BUNK we claim as signs and miracles during our time.

 

I know allot to think about when you are used to the whole "it has always been believing in Jesus" nonsense nowhere in the context in God's Word. A few misinterpreted verses taken out of context and shouted over and over and over again by lazy preachers who don't want to really look into it doesn't make true Bible doctrine and history.

[Alimantado]

Okay...now show where works and/or the law WERE required for salvation.

 

 

Answer the following questions.

 

What would have happened to Noah if he believed God was going to flood the world and he didn't build the Ark?

 

What would happen to Abraham if he believed God but didn't leave Ur (Syria)?

 

<snip>

 

Okay, but this is pointless to answer hypothetical situations.

 

The irony, NN, is that when anybody else uses a hypothetical or asks a question by way of an answer, AVBB criticises them for 'sophistry'. Yet here he's chosen to answer your simple request with a list of 10 hypothetical questions!

[Covenanter]

AVBB
You gave a long list of OT saints. I suggest you read Hebrews 11, James 2 and Rahab's testimony in Joshua 2. You will see that these folk believed God and lived by that faith. You will look in vain for the works of the law as a means of justification.

And Rahab was the mother of the godly Boaz in the genealogy of Christ.

[Alimantado]

You inferred a tone that was not there.

 

On the contrary, I just described what was >OBviously on show. The last sentence alone is an OBvious example: '...such nonsense as I have read over the last 8 pages'. Anyway, like I said earlier, that wasn't even the main point I was making.

[No Nicolaitans]

Remember NN, I came into this argument late. Nowhere have I (nor anyone else in this thread) stated that keeping the law was necessary nor that works were necessary.  

 

Post 37.

 

However it is Scriptural true that prior to the pouring out of the Spirit, any and all true faith was demonstrated by works as opposed to our time in which the Spirit's regeneration is the demonstration of faith in the Gospel.

 

The issue also isn't your last statement about stumbling, the issue is that noone in the OT had any idea what you are talking about or the OT would clearly state that somewhere. You are reading hindsight and thinking the idea could be commonly known when it was in fact completely unknown (a mystery). No stumbling, just unknown. Believing God when He showed Himself to man was the only thing known at the time.

 

The Bible is the one that says it; I'm just repeating what the Bible says...

 

Isaiah 8:13-14

13   Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
14   And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

 

Isaiah 28:16
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

 

Romans 9:31-33

31   But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32   Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33   As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

 

Come on folks, think for yourselves about it and put away the simplistic fairy tales. Salvation as we know it since Pentecost didn't even exist in the OT. Those saints had to stay faithful until death. NOT necessarily workful, but FAITHful.

 

That IS work-based.

 

Oh and yes, during the tribulation, it will be the same way. There will be no Spirit regeneration, no born again, no saved (as we know it). Those saints will once again have to keep themselves until the day of redemption at death but they too will have the helps of real signs, real visions, real miracles. Not the emotional charismatic BUNK we claim as signs and miracles during our time.

 

That's works-based too. 

 

I know allot to think about when you are used to the whole "it has always been believing in Jesus" nonsense nowhere in the context in God's Word. A few misinterpreted verses taken out of context and shouted over and over and over again by lazy preachers who don't want to really look into it doesn't make true Bible doctrine and history.

 

I humbly suggest that you go back and read all of my entries in this thread. All that I have consistently said is...

1. that they were saved by grace through faith
2. they believed God, and it was accounted unto them for righteousness

The closest that I came to what you are saying that I'm advocating is...

 

 

...and I stand by that statement.