Paradise And Abraham's Bosom

[Guest]

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 
Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I see Acts 2:33 as Luke saying that God told Jesus to tell the Apostles that the Spirit would come. Luke went on to say that the promise was fulfilled.

John's Gospel reveals that Jesus did in fact promise the coming of the Spirit... As does Acts 1:8

[AVBibleBeliever]

Paradise is found 3 times in the NT only

 

 Lu 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Not sure where it is in this verse.  But Christ had not died yet.

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.  Here Paul says it was UP and it was located in the third heaven. this was after the Ascension of Christ. 

 

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. We see that the paradise of God in at this time in heaven, and that the tree of life is there.  but we see by this verse Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.  The previous chapter tells us the new Jerulasem is on the earth by Rev 22 and that the tree of life is in it so the paradise is part of the New Jerusalem and looks to be a Hebrew/Jewish thing.  Even Abraham was an Hebrew.

 

 

Abraham's Bosom is found 1 time only in the NT, but bosom in the next verse let's us know it was Abraham's bosom.

 

Lu 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

No mention that his is paradise.  It is an assumption by men (it may be a good one but no way to prove it with Scripture)

 

It is hard to make a clear direct connection that Abraham's Bosom is indeed in Paradise.  When in almost ever instance of Paradise is always up.  and the angels carried the beggar into Abraham's bosom they could carry him both up or down.  We do know that Torments was lower that Abraham's bosom or at least  straight across because the reference to the rich man lifting up his eyes could be he looked up from his condition of flames because he could have been looking down at his hands and feet looking at the flame of fire.  Those text is not calling the location of Abraham and the beggar Abraham's bosom but that the angels carried him there into his bosom.

 

Ascended in context with Jesus is found 6 times in the  NT and once in the OT for a total of 7 times.

 

 Ps 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, [for] the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell [among them].
 Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.
 Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
 Ac 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
 Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
 Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
 Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
 

Lead captivity captive is the standard verse that is attributed to Torments and Paradise, again an assumption by men (it may be a good one but can't be truly connected by scripture). 

 

Jesus was raised from the dead, it does not say he was raised from Paradise.  Ascended was from the Planet Surface not from the dead.  So Jesus being raised from the dead and his ascension are two different events.  Some believe (again an assumption and a good one) that Jesus ascended unto his father two times. Once between his appearance to Mary John 20:17 and his appearance to the 11 in the upper room and then again when he left them in Galilee in Acts 1:9 (though it does not say ascended here but taken up).  The Scriptures say he ascended and it could have been in reference to the first between his visits with Mary and his disciples and not the taken up of Acts 1:9.

 

men have made their statements and many of have been taught the things that are mentioned in previous posts.  to understand it we need to look back at the verses and really set aside the teaching of men and just study out what God's word says and if there is a connection by rightly dividing them.

 

It is difficult and this is an area again many disagree but there is no lost salvation if Paradise and Abraham's bosom are the same places or not.

 

 

 

 

 

[AVBibleBeliever]

I'll have to ask my pastor about this topic. All news to me.

Daisy you need to not ask men but God and study it out for yourself.  The command to study in 2Tim 2:15 is for you as well.  so write out all the verse and OBserve the textual context and learn to rightly divide the word of truth for yourself.

[HappyChristian]

Daisy you need to not ask men but God and study it out for yourself.  The command to study in 2Tim 2:15 is for you as well.  so write out all the verse and OBserve the textual context and learn to rightly divide the word of truth for yourself.

Urging someone to study scripture is great. But do not interfere with someone who is going to their pastor for clarification on something.  Period.

[Winman]

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 
Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

And when was this written? 

[Winman]

I see Acts 2:33 as Luke saying that God told Jesus to tell the Apostles that the Spirit would come. Luke went on to say that the promise was fulfilled.

John's Gospel reveals that Jesus did in fact promise the coming of the Spirit... As does Acts 1:8

 

Everyone agrees that Jesus promised the Spirit to believers, but doesn't Acts 2:33 also say Jesus received the Holy Ghost?

 

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

 

This seems to be a fulfillment of Psalm 68:18;

 

Psa 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

 

Paul also quotes this verse in Ephesians 4:8;

 

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men

 

The way I understand it is that Jesus had to ascend to the Father and receive the Holy Ghost (Spirit) from him in order to send him to believers. 

 

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you

 

.Jhn 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

 

Yes, Col 2:8 says in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, but this was written after Jesus rose from the dead and ascended to the Father. 

 

I might be wrong, but I don't think I am. Scripture before this says the Spirit was "upon" Jesus, not "in" him. 

[Ukulelemike]

It kind of seems to me that He received the PROMISE of the Spirit, not that He received the Spirit. And that Spirit He shed forth, and what the men of the nations in Jerusalem were seeing was the result of that Spirit having been shed abroad.

[AVBibleBeliever]

Urging someone to study scripture is great. But do not interfere with someone who is going to their pastor for clarification on something.  Period.

That was not my intent. 

 

and don't take the following wrong.

 

Where in scripture does it say go to the pastor and see what he says?

 

But it does say to study.

 

The current western Christianity runs its fellowships in opposition as to how the NT ones did.   And this has caused Christians to be weak in knowledge, wisdom and spirituality.

 

the Muslim world is afraid of one thing that could destroy their religion.  It is western culture.  this western culture rooted is rooted in the Old Roman Empire and it has ruined Christianity and they fear it will do the same to Islam.

[lettheredeemedsayso]

Because the high priest, Jesus Christ, had not entered once and for all into the holy of holies and sprinkled His blood on the Mercy seat. Hebrews 10

[Guest]

That was not my intent. 

 

and don't take the following wrong.

 

Where in scripture does it say go to the pastor and see what he says?

 

But it does say to study.

 

The current western Christianity runs its fellowships in opposition as to how the NT ones did.   And this has caused Christians to be weak in knowledge, wisdom and spirituality.

 

the Muslim world is afraid of one thing that could destroy their religion.  It is western culture.  this western culture rooted is rooted in the Old Roman Empire and it has ruined Christianity and they fear it will do the same to Islam.

There is more but I'll leave this..."Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are established. " Pro. 15:22

[Guest]

And when was this written? 

 More importantly, what was it in reference to? It was in reference to Jesus Christ "the fulness of the Godhead bodily" while he walked the earth before men's eyes. We can't divide God the Son up into parts, we have to receive him as whole and very God.

[AVBibleBeliever]

There is more but I'll leave this..."Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are established. " Pro. 15:22

 Pr 19:21 ¶ [There are] many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.
Getting your counsel from God's word is first priority because men have many devices in their hearts.

 

 Isa 28:29 This also cometh forth from the LORD of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working God's counsel is more wonderful than that of men.

 

Isa 30:1a ¶ Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me;

God wants us to take counsel from Him and in doing so we are not rebellious

 

So it is ok to encourage someone to study first and not to rely on men in matters of God's word.  I am not against counsel of men but many times were are to quick to trust men over God's word.
 

[Winman]

 More importantly, what was it in reference to? It was in reference to Jesus Christ "the fulness of the Godhead bodily" while he walked the earth before men's eyes. We can't divide God the Son up into parts, we have to receive him as whole and very God.

 

 

But there is a difference between Jesus when he walked on the earth, and after he was crucified and rose again. He died on the cross, but he can never die again. 

 

Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

 

Jesus came in "the flesh". He was exactly like us in every way, he got hungry, tired, he was tempted in all points as we are, he could be touched with the feeling of our infirmities (weaknesses), he could physically die. He is not like that anymore, now he has a gloried body and cannot die. 

 

Jesus "emptied himself" (Phi 2:7) when he came in the flesh. I believe he had to fight sin the same way as the OT saints did, by trusting and OBeying the word of God. The scriptures do say the Spirit was "upon him", not "in him", just as was spoken in the OT. 

 

Num 11:24 And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the LORD, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle.

25 And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.

26 But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.

27 And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.

28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.

29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!

 

In the OT the Holy Spirit only rested "upon" men, not "in" men, and I believe it was exactly the same for Jesus, the Spirit was only upon him. 

 

Else, if Jesus had the indwelling Holy Spirit, how could he cry out, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? We have the promise in scripture that the Holy Spirit will NEVER leave us nor forsake us. 

 

Even in the NT the scriptures say the Spirit was "upon" Jesus. 

 

Luk 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

 

I think that if the Spirit was "in" Jesus, he would have said so. He did not, he said the Spirit was "upon me" just like the OT prophets. 

 

I might be wrong, but I do not know of scripture that shows differently . 

[Guest]

There is more but I'll leave this..."Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counsellors they are established. " Pro. 15:22

 

 Pr 19:21 ¶ [There are] many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.
Getting your counsel from God's word is first priority because men have many devices in their hearts.

 

 Isa 28:29 This also cometh forth from the LORD of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working God's counsel is more wonderful than that of men.

 

Isa 30:1a ¶ Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me;

God wants us to take counsel from Him and in doing so we are not rebellious

 

So it is ok to encourage someone to study first and not to rely on men in matters of God's word.  I am not against counsel of men but many times were are to quick to trust men over God's word.
 

 I'm not going to hijack this thread any further with this question but, take a look at Acts 15. "Acts 15:2   When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question." I think there are two matters which need to get out of this thread and I will stop participating in them here. I apologize swathdiver.