What Advice Do You Have Or Same-Sex Couples

[LindaR]

Oh, goodness! Where to begin?

Okay, but this isn't the same thing as a sodomite couple. For starters, even in a situation where a man sins, has an affair, and marries his mistress the marriage, itself, is in the model of what God expects - one man and one woman legally, and spiritually, bound. They can both ask God to forgive them of their sin of adultery and their marriage will be sanctified. A sodomite relationship does not qualify, because it's an abomination from the get-go. Nowhere in the Bible does God even hint that two men or two women can have a relationship that will be honored by Him. Why? Because even when adultery occurs between a man and a woman, the intimate act itself is not called an abomination, nor vile affections. Adultery is a sin, yes, and all sin is sin; however, a homosexual union is an aberration.

 

God doesn't want families to be broken apart, but He also expects us not to put ourselves in situations where innocent children will be brought into sexually deviant relationships where the children will be hurt in the process of their parents repenting. You seem to think that God is concerned with our happiness. That's worldly. Our happiness is oftentimes contingent upon indulging the lusts of our flesh. God is concerned with our holiness, full stop, no exceptions. 

 

I will be so bold as to say you don't know any healthy, functional sodomite family, because truly functional, healthy relationships honor the Lord. Any relationship that does not honor the Lord is in a state of dysfunction, because being outside of God's plan leads to chaos and constant inner turmoil. You are justifying something the Lord calls an abomination by claiming you know sodomite couples with children who have great careers and seem happy from all outside appearances. I knew a woman once who was successful. She shacked up with her boyfriend, because marriage was for suckers. She wasn't about to be tied down. She got pregnant, had an abortion, and got a promotion at work. I guess by your estimation she was in a healthy relationship as well, just because surface appearances would attest to her success and happienss.

 

Children are the innocent byproducts on sinful unions every single day. They are not beyond God's reach, but to make excuses for abominable behavior just because someone has a child is so wrong. That's like saying we should let a child be raised by a pimp because, hey, it's better than having no dad at all. 

 

The prOBlem we're having in this discussion with you, KOB, is that you seem to operate under the misguided premise that God's view of repentance changes based upon local legalities and cultural norms. It doesn't. God's system of repentance remains unchanged.

 

But you do have an agenda. You did not merely ask an innocent question. You asked, and then keep coming back with all of these personal anecdotes about all of these awesomesauce sodomite "families" you know and how we're somehow supposed to change our view of accepting these types of couples into our churches, just because you think legalities and having children change God's perception of their relationship. 

 

Here is how the church deals with it - you call it what it is. Sin. You preach the truth in love. You make it abundantly clear that they are welcome to visit, but they are not, under any uncertain terms, to promote their abominable lifestyle to church members, and they will not be allowed to enter into the body of believers without repentance. Repentance, in this case, would mean parting ways and dividing assets in accordance with the laws under which they were married, and then separating and pursuing God's holiness for their lives. 

 

I used to attend church with a gay man. The church I attended was so desperate for a music minister that they allowed him in and then turned a blind eye to his sin. They tried to pretend he wasn't a sodomite simply to justify their decision. And this was a Southern Baptist church! He claimed he was a homosexual, but celibate. When he was caught by a deacon holding hands with another man while shopping at a furniture store one day, he claimed they were "just old friends from college". Come to find out, he was his live-in lover and they were buying furnishings for the new home they just bought. When our church pianist passed away, he brought his lover in to replace her! The final straw was when he was allowed to go on a youth mission trip to Amsterdam. He was caught taking two teenage boys from the youth group to a gay brothel. He died of AIDS three years later, still acting in the capacity of music minister of the church. This isn't idle gossip. He admitted all of these things himself as soon as he realized he was going to die.

 

These are the consequences of allowing unrepentant sodomites into the fellowship for the sake of being politically correct, nice, or because there is a shortage of members to fill leadership roles in the church. Homosexuals have joined churches, claimed they were single and celibate, and have divided churches by recruiting young people. They cause confusion. I've heard stories of sodomites befriending married men, allowing them to confide personal marriage struggles, and then seducing them. They use churches to abuse children. Without repentance, there is no fellowship. Period. That seems harsh, and hateful, to the world, but hey, the narrow path is called narrow for a reason.

 

Amen sister!

[Steve Schwenke]

same sex "marriage" is NOT a Biblical marriage, no matter how you want to make it so.  It is SODOMY, and God calls it an abomination in the OT and the NT.  He burnt Sodom and Gomorrah to the ground over it.  If they are truly seeking the Lord, they will repent of their sodomite ways, and "separate" or "divorce" or anything else you want to call it. 

I don't see what the issue is here, KOB.  It is very simple.  You are being blinded by EMOTION and experience.  You are refusing the clear teaching of Scripture on this.

 

I'm done here. 

[no name joe]

Ok.  I'll leave the topic of same sex marriage and how the church should respond. 

 

But in my follow up question, if a husband marries his mistress, has children by wife 1, and children by wife 2, that is a very toxic situation for the children.  Wife 1 will always be hurt and struggle with anger, rejection, etc.  Does God honor the second marriage?  Does the Bible not say that if one divorces, they should not remarry?  I need to pull out the reference.  If so, isn't the husband continuing to live in an adulterous relationship with his mistress?  If wife 1 wants to reconcile and husband ignores her and divorces and marries wife 2, then has children with her, what is repentance?  What does it require? 

 

 What if husband and wife 2 want to joint the same church as wife 1?  Which must stay and which must go?  Wife 1 will be sick seeing her husband and mistress in church every week.  It is a terrible, terrible situation that seems to me must be dealt with in some manner.  Does the husband repent by not going back to wife 1? 

[JimsHelpmeet]

Ok.  I'll leave the topic of same sex marriage and how the church should respond. 

 

But in my follow up question, if a husband marries his mistress, has children by wife 1, and children by wife 2, that is a very toxic situation for the children.  Wife 1 will always be hurt and struggle with anger, rejection, etc.  Does God honor the second marriage?  Does the Bible not say that if one divorces, they should not remarry?  I need to pull out the reference.  If so, isn't the husband continuing to live in an adulterous relationship with his mistress?  If wife 1 wants to reconcile and husband ignores her and divorces and marries wife 2, then has children with her, what is repentance?  What does it require? 

 

 What if husband and wife 2 want to joint the same church as wife 1?  Which must stay and which must go?  Wife 1 will be sick seeing her husband and mistress in church every week.  It is a terrible, terrible situation that seems to me must be dealt with in some manner.  Does the husband repent by not going back to wife 1? 

You're right - it is a most unfortunate situation for the children to be in. Blended families are hard work, and there are oftentimes many hurt feelings and resentment along the way. That is a consequence of the sin, itself. The fact remains that God's model for marriage is one man and one woman. It really is very simple. We complicate it by throwing our feelings into the mix. The topic of homosexuality is most difficult to approach, because it is likely most of us have a former friend, or even a close relative, who is in a sodomite relationship. Our personal feelings of wanting that person to feel loved and accepted will make it all the more difficult to accept God's Truth about the issue. 

 

As to your scenario, it is most unlikely that a woman jilted by her husband would seek membership at a church where he attends with his new wife and children. Even so, God makes it clear in His Word that when we love Christ, we will seek to forgive and live peaceably with other believers.

[Alimantado]

Have to say I'm also a bit thrown by the claim being made by several on here that if one is adulterous and divorces and remarries, then so long as the couple repent, the marriage becomes sanctified and every bit as legitimate in God's eyes as any other marriage. The justification given is that man-woman marriages are otherwise fine, so it's just the adultery that needs dealing with.

 

To me this sounds bizarre because of how OBviously wrong it seems in other situations. For example, lets say I steal £1,000 and get away with it. If I genuinely repent of that theft, does God then approve of me keeping the money because having money is not by itself sinful?

[swathdiver]

This post is long, but it is so to make a point. KOB has been told over and over and over how a church should go about Biblically handling homosexuality and he keeps going back to his humanistic legalese and opinions over the Bible...

 

You have been answered but in typical lawyer fashion you keep avoiding the truth and mixing words just to get your client exonerated. You don't want the Bible, you want acceptance. Rereading all your posts I see that you want it YOUR way, not Gods.

 

The tragic reality here is that OPer hasn't a clue.  For the Bible says:

 

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." - 1 Corinthians 2:14

[JimsHelpmeet]

Have to say I'm also a bit thrown by the claim being made by several on here that if one is adulterous and divorces and remarries, then so long as the couple repent, the marriage becomes sanctified and every bit as legitimate in God's eyes as any other marriage. The justification given is that man-woman marriages are otherwise fine, so it's just the adultery that needs dealing with.

 

To me this sounds bizarre because of how OBviously wrong it seems in other situations. For example, lets say I steal £1,000 and get away with it. If I genuinely repent of that theft, does God then approve of me keeping the money because having money is not by itself sinful?

The marriage will be sanctified through repentance. In this case, repentance comes through not committing two sins. To divorce again is just as much of a sin as divorcing in the first place. In the case of stealing money, the money belongs to someone else. In the case of divorce, I'm not sure where people in churches today get this idea of "permanent soul ties". It seems very "mystical" to me, and I certainly can't find it in the Bible. Yes, the Bible says we become one flesh, but I don't see where this is a soul issue or that once the wife has been "put away" by her husband, that they are still "soul tied" to one another. Therefore, the divorced spouses are not the "property" of another person, the way stolen money would be.

 

I read an article once while doing research about divorce and remarriage about "soul ties". This seems to be a largely charismatic concept. One said that demonic soul ties are linked to things like gifts given to you by someone you formed an unholy soul tie with, and how they must be burned to break the soul tie. That you must, "pray the spirit of the Lord" against those soul ties. 

 

I do want to say that I am not, by any means, advocating that people take their marriage vows flippantly. But I do believe that even marriages that are the result of adultery can be forgiven by God, and that divorcing again would be sinful. God's Word says so in Deuteronomy. In fact, God told the Israelites that if they divorced a second spouse to reunite with the first it would defile their spouse and displease the Lord. OBviously God takes divorcing a subsequent spouse just as seriously as divorcing the first one, even if the marriage was entered into under sinful terms.

[Genevanpreacher]

Very real scenario:

 

Two women have lived together for 12 years in a same-sex relationship.  They have gone to another state to get legally married and now reside in your state.  Through in vitro fertilization and an anonymous sperm donor through a sperm bank, they have conceived and are raising three children, ages 6, 4 and 6 months.  They come to your church and would like to join.

 

What do you do?  What do you tell them?  What position should the church take on this?  This puts two sins in at odds.  Homosexuality and divorce.  Maybe.  Perhaps they have decided to remain celibate.  No one has ever asked my wife and I about our sex lives, so should we ask about theirs? 

 

I am curious to know what your advice would be.  Here we have three children who are well cared for, love their mothers, and are excelling in every area of life.  If you advise them to separate and "divorce" (that is what would occur, no matter what you call it), the children would be harmed.  If you advise them to stay together, do you tell them they have to be celibate?

 

How should the church address same-sex families in these situations?  How can the church possibly reach them if we advocate tearing their family apart? 

I am friends with a couple in this very situation. I never hear Christians talk about the realities, and am curious as to your thoughts:

 

1.  How do you know this couple is having sex, which is prohibited in the Bible?  If they are celibate, are they still sinning? 

 

2.  When children and assets are involved, and breaking them up, if you say that is what they must do, how do you decide who gets custody of children?  Who gets the house?  Who gets money in the bank account? 

 

I'm not interested in a debate as the morality or immorality of same-sex sex.  I am interested in the realities of people who are living as families and are legally married, and how the church should address these situations.  Do we just turn them away?  Do we maintain and respect their families and tell them to abstain from sex? 

 

I would like to say this very LOUDLY.

 

This will not happen. Anyone who are/is in a perverted situation as this 'couple', are in a state of reprOBation, as per Romans chapter one. Period.

They will not OBserve God and His law for what they are.

Now if they repent and 'destroy' their situation, they become as anyone else seeking the ways of the Lord. But if they do not 'destroy' this type of relationship, they are none of His.

 

Check out 1 Corinthians 6 and you will see the phrase, " and such were some of you...".

 

They need to become, each, a real woman, and disavow any type of relationship with each other, to prove they are really trying to follow God and His word.

 

If they are living as 'in love' with each other in any way shape or form, they are not sincere.

 

Either way, what in the world would they want to be members for? Just to infiltrate their so called lifestyle in the face of Christianity.

 

Let society close the doors of the churches! It is better to OBey God rather than man!!

[jebarr]

Ok.  I'll leave the topic of same sex marriage and how the church should respond. 

 

But in my follow up question, if a husband marries his mistress, has children by wife 1, and children by wife 2, that is a very toxic situation for the children.  Wife 1 will always be hurt and struggle with anger, rejection, etc.  Does God honor the second marriage?  Does the Bible not say that if one divorces, they should not remarry?  I need to pull out the reference.  If so, isn't the husband continuing to live in an adulterous relationship with his mistress?  If wife 1 wants to reconcile and husband ignores her and divorces and marries wife 2, then has children with her, what is repentance?  What does it require? 

 

 What if husband and wife 2 want to joint the same church as wife 1?  Which must stay and which must go?  Wife 1 will be sick seeing her husband and mistress in church every week.  It is a terrible, terrible situation that seems to me must be dealt with in some manner.  Does the husband repent by not going back to wife 1? 

 

What if Husband 1 and Wife 1 love each other growing closer to God and each other everyday while walking in His likeness? If we stick to God's design and plan we won't have all of these "what ifs".

[Alimantado]

The marriage will be sanctified through repentance. In this case, repentance comes through....

 

Excellent answer, thanks so much for taking the time to put that together, JH!

[swathdiver]

 I'm not sure where people in churches today get this idea of "permanent soul ties". 

 

I think they're trying to spiritualize the feelings a woman has for a man.  An adulterous woman is going to have an emotional attachment, however slight, for each man she has been with.  For today's worldly and lost women, that adds up to a lot of pain and sadness.

[JimsHelpmeet]

I think they're trying to spiritualize the feelings a woman has for a man.  An adulterous woman is going to have an emotional attachment, however slight, for each man she has been with.  For today's worldly and lost women, that adds up to a lot of pain and sadness.

Exactly, and I've seen this theory come up in some of the more charismatic, and even dominionist movement circles. This concept of giving pieces of your soul away to others. I'm not saying that when we allow people into our lives we don't form bonds, but the Bible states that those ties can be broken. That in the case of marriage, it's never God's intent that they be broken, but that because of "hardness of heart" it does happen. I read a supposedly Christian article once that said if a young woman uses a particular type of feminine hygiene product she is soul tied to it, because it has been used in an "intimate fashion". Not trying to be graphic, but I think this illustrates just how far this type of romanticism and even borderline mysticism can be taken.

[Genevanpreacher]

I know several same-sex couples who are very healthy families.  One couple I knew raised children together and were committed for 40 years before her partner died.  Their children are productive, healthy, happy people today.  Another couple has a son in my daughter's class.  One of the strongest families I know.  One mother a doctor, the other a stay at home mother, and the child is very intelligent, well rounded, kind, and loving. 

 

I'm not saying starting a family like that is right.  But where there is a family, there God can and does work through those situations. 

 

I don't see it any differently than where there was an affair.  It is a broken, situation.  But there is room for the healing and grace of God to work therein without causing more pain and tearing apart a family. 

 

All I am saying is we will see families like this.  My question is how the church should reach them.  I do not think the answer is to merely exclude and reject them until they separate.

Why would you know them? Why?

[4everHis]

Only Barney the dinosaur defines family as "a family is people and a family is love, that's a family, they come in all different sizes and different shapes, but mine's just right for me, yeah mine's just right for me".

 

The Bible, the Word of God, God's very breathed words on paper tells us that a family is established when a man leaves his mother and father and a woman leaves her father and mother and they make a covenant binding them together as husband and wife.

 

Your reasoning is interesting, but faulty.  Two woman can not be man and wife.  Despite the fact you know them and are willing to overlook and to justify their sin as a family does not make them a family.

 

As to the church, if these ladies were to want to join your church, they might not understand the commitment they are asking to make any more than they understand the commitment of marriage.  (You can say it is legal all you want, but so is abortion...neither is righteous.  Legal does not equal godly.)   My church would definitely encourage them toward holy living.  (The act of fornication is not the only disqualifier here.  The children are being taught to honor their mother and mother.  That is not the first commandment with promise.  Furthermore they are being taught that rebelling against God's order is just fine because everyone is nice together.)

 

I hope you can begin to separate your thoughts on things from what God actually says.  Our purpose is to bring glory to God.  Knowingly approving of sin in the lives of people (who may not even be believers) is not a manner in which we can glorify God.

 

You wonder what the church should do?  Teach and preach the Word.  Lots of time sin has horrible consequences that prevent people from wanting to repent and make things right.  These women have created a mess with their sin.  When they repent, they will have the difficult time of separating things in a Christ honoring manner.  Sin and its consequences are not usually easy to deal with.  However, we are not to do what is easy, we are to do what is right.

 

Your posts seem to ask how the church should reach them.  The same way we reach every sinner.  Win them to the Lord.  These ladies are living sinfully.  Period.  You seem to know them.  Have you talked to them about their salvation?   Have you let them know their actions are against God's order?  Or is this just an academic exercise on your part?  Just wondering.

[JimsHelpmeet]

I hope you can begin to separate your thoughts on things from what God actually says.  

This, exactly. As I said somewhere up-thread, this is a difficult subject for many Christians, because most of us know, or love, someone who professes to be "gay". I have a cousin who is a lesbian and another cousin who is "transgendered". It's very difficult to reconcile my personal feelings of familial love for them with what my God says about their chosen behavior. Both of my cousins proclaim this is the way God made them, and ask if it's such a sin, why would He make them that way? I have tried explaining to them we are all born with a sin nature, but that doesn't mean we should give into the devil. We are to resist him! They say, "well, I was born this way, the same way a black person is born with the color of their skin." Because there is so much acceptance toward these reprOBate lifestyles today, the homosexual offender has given up all hope in being radically changed by God. They just throw up their hands and say, "oh well. It's who I am". It doesn't help when you have groups, such as Exodus International, coming forth and saying, "nope, you can't change. You're still going to be gay. Sorry we lied to you". 

 

Just 40 years ago they removed homosexuality from the DSM-IV. There were still some mental illnesses related to homosexuality that remained as a part of the diagnostic criteria, but all references to homosexuality were removed from the DSM-IV by 1986, due to heavy pressure from the radical queer activist groups. The other day I was commenting on a news article. Our state voted in favor of passing a law against sodomite marriages in 2004. Now the radical activists are suing the state, claiming it's unconstitutional to not allow them to marry. I made a comment in favor of traditional marriage and several people referred to me as "mentally ill" for calling it a sin. Even some so-called Christians. It's amazing how aberrant sexual behavior was once considered the mental illness, and now simply saying you don't agree with it called a mental illness.