Members AVBibleBeliever Posted March 15, 2014 Members Share Posted March 15, 2014 NO NICS, John81, et al, Have you outlined the books of the Bible as part of your study? In the major and minor prophets you have a lot of verses that are speaking about what has taken place in the past concerning Israel. But not everything in those verse took place in the past and they are not taking place now but will take place in one of three places in the future, either the time of Jacob's trouble, the kingdom or Eternity. Zac 14 has not taken place yet. Part of it takes place during the tribulation but the description at the end speaks of the Kingdom period. Praise to the Lord! AMEN! In regards to Zechariah 14... Zechariah 14:16-19 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. There are the results of not keeping the feast of tabernacles during the millennium...they will be PHYSICALLY punished. First, physically with no rain. If no rain doesn't get them to the feast, the LORD will send a plague to physically smite them. There's nothing about that having to do with salvation. It's similar to Israel obeying or disobeying the law. Obey, and you'll be blessed physically. Disobey, and you'll be punished physically. of course they will no doubt and if they keep it unto the GWT Judgement they will be judged for those things. And if they do it with a right heart and learn from the Jews about Jesus when the GWT comes they will find their names in the lamb's book of life. Not a single member of the body of Christ will be at the white throne judgement. But preacher keep saying we must have our name in the Lamb's book of life. Why? My name is know by Jesus and my salvation is in him not in my works so none of my works put my name in a book. Paul taught no such thing but I bet you all do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members No Nicolaitans Posted March 15, 2014 Members Share Posted March 15, 2014 If someone stands at the Great White Throne Judgment, they'll go to the lake of fire. Case closed. This will be my last post here, because it's serving no purpose. AV, I don't doubt that you've studied these things out; however, every view that you've put forth here and on other parts of Online Baptist (that I've seen) is Ruckman Theology. Now, whether you subscribe to Ruckman's views on purpose or not, I don't know; however, you put these topics out as though you've studied them and came up with all of these answers...when to me, it looks like you've allowed Ruckman to influence your beliefs, and you're putting forth Ruckmanism. I'm not accusing you of copying Ruckman...just saying that it appears you've been heavily influenced by him. If not, I apologize. If you like Ruckman, that's fine. I personally disagree with much of what he espouses, but we are free to believe what we want. I hope you have a good day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AVBibleBeliever Posted March 15, 2014 Members Share Posted March 15, 2014 If someone stands at the Great White Throne Judgment, they'll go to the lake of fire. Case closed. This will be my last post here, because it's serving no purpose. AV, I don't doubt that you've studied these things out; however, every view that you've put forth here and on other parts of Online Baptist (that I've seen) is Ruckman Theology. Now, whether you subscribe to Ruckman's views on purpose or not, I don't know; however, you put these topics out as though you've studied them and came up with all of these answers...when to me, it looks like you've allowed Ruckman to influence your beliefs, and you're putting forth Ruckmanism. I'm not accusing you of copying Ruckman...just saying that it appears you've been heavily influenced by him. If not, I apologize. If you like Ruckman, that's fine. I personally disagree with much of what he espouses, but we are free to believe what we want. I hope you have a good day. Case Closed no serious look at scriptures that is odd. You doubt I studied these things out. Well I have studied it out. No I do not follow Ruckman. I don't agree with all his views either. some places he has some good points and others he does not. I am heavy influenced by 2 Tim 2:15. Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. So because this verse does not say, "those found in the lamb's book of life entered into the New Jerusalem" for you everyone at this judgement is lost? Re 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. this is what is for those whose names are found in the Lamb's book of life at the GWT. This is not the body of Christ we are already there. The GWT is what was known by many Jews and the Resurrection in the last day or the Resurrection of the Just Lu 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just. John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. this part of Hebrews shows both the resurrection and the judgement. But judgement is not always condemnation. the following verse is speaking of the Tribulation, the deliverance into the kingdom when Christ Returns, and the GWT Da 12:1 ¶ And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. the reason for the word Many in Daniel is that at the end of the Millennial Kingdom, just before the GWT, many were killed by a great fire and thrown directly into the lake of fire with no GWT judgement for gathering against the beloved city in Jerusalem. Their following Satan sealed their judgement. Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ASongOfDegrees Posted March 15, 2014 Members Share Posted March 15, 2014 Case Closed no serious look at scriptures that is odd. No I do not follow Ruckman. I don't agree with all his views either. some places he has some good points and others he does not. I am heavy influenced by 2 Tim 2:15. Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. So because this verse does not say, "those found in the lamb's book of life entered into the New Jerusalem" for you everyone at this judgement is lost? Re 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. this is what is for those whose names are found in the Lamb's book of life at the GWT. This is not the body of Christ we are already there. The GWT is what was known by many Jews and the Resurrection in the last day or the Resurrection of the Just Lu 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just. John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. this part of Hebrews shows both the resurrection and the judgement. But judgement is not always condemnation. the following verse is speaking of the Tribulation, the deliverance into the kingdom when Christ Returns, and the GWT Da 12:1 ¶ And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. the reason for the word Many in Daniel is that at the end of the Millennial Kingdom, just before the GWT, many were killed by a great fire and thrown directly into the lake of fire with no GWT judgement for gathering against the beloved city in Jerusalem. Their following Satan sealed their judgement. Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. You are wading out too deep, brother. Many aren't ready for it yet or just don't want to row that far. When the name of Ruckman starts getting thrown around it better to just pack it up. I agree that the "Great White Throne Judgement" is NOT made up of just the unsaved dead. There will be names that are in the book of life that will be blotted out at this time as well as names that aren't even in there. It's a judgement based on works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AVBibleBeliever Posted March 15, 2014 Members Share Posted March 15, 2014 You are wading out too deep, brother. Many aren't ready for it yet or just don't want to row that far. When the name of Ruckman starts getting thrown around it better to just pack it up. I agree that the "Great White Throne Judgement" is NOT made up of just the unsaved dead. There will be names that are in the book of life that will be blotted out at this time as well as names that aren't even in there. It's a judgement based on works. Look I showed where the ones whose names are found in the Lamb's book of life go it is in the next chapter. this verse is very clear that those whose names are in the Lamb's book of Life got go into the New Jerusalem. That is Bible not a man made doctrine here is the verse again. The only time the Lamb's book of life is opened according to scripture is here in Revelation at the end of the millennial Kingdom at the Great White Throne Judgement. Re 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life Obvious there are peoples names found written in the lambs book of Life because the only time that book is opened is at the GWT. The Body of Christ is not at the GWT our judgement was carried on the cross by Jesus. We were not recorded in the lamb's book we became part of the Lamb's body. 1Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. Ro 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. The only Judgement we face is the judgement seat of Christ for rewards where our rewards are revealed. 2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. I am not a Ruckmanite that much is for sure. As a matter of fact many Ruckmanites don't like my studies either because I don't capitulate or compromise the word for a man made doctrine. Like Ruckman's segregation teaching that there should be no intermarriage of the races and they should have their own churches and lands. That teaching is just the parallel of the Farrakhan's Nation of Islam teaching that teach the same thing except that the blacks are supreme and the white race lower class and I read that in one of his books called "black is beautiful" backin 1994. To late for me if that were true I married a woman of ethnic race that is not white. Did you notice how NoNic first accuses me of not studying these things out and then subtly implies that they are Ruckman's Teachings. How would he know any of that for sure unless he is Omnipotent. I have never checked to see if Ruckman even taught any of this because I can't afford to buy his books and I only borrowed one of them years ago. But I guess I can take NoNic's word for it seeing he knows everything and I just hadn't studied it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AVBibleBeliever Posted March 16, 2014 Members Share Posted March 16, 2014 We are not saved BY Faith. We are saved BY Grace and that is through faith. Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; . . . Look at the terms by and through they are not the same. In many uses of the word "through faith" is used it means that it is a supernatural work of God and if "by" proceeds it, it means that there is some sort of work man needs to do. i.e Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Ro 3:30 Seeing [it is] one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. interesting to see the Jews were justified by faith but we through faith. Ga 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed. Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. definitely a supernatural conception. Heb 11:33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. here we have an example of the Kingdom Gospel that they will be kept by the Power of God through faith unto their salvation which they have not yet received even though the have faith. this is another difference in our salvation to day and that of the time of Christ and in the future we have our salvation NOW and we can never lose it. All others don't have it at the moment of faith but will get it in the end. Unlike I, I have my salvation NOW and I got it by God's grace through my faith on Christ. And remember faith is not a work it is a condition of the heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John81 Posted March 16, 2014 Members Share Posted March 16, 2014 Read the rest of the Ephesians passage which clearly says, not of works. No flesh is saved by works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AVBibleBeliever Posted March 16, 2014 Members Share Posted March 16, 2014 Read the rest of the Ephesians passage which clearly says, not of works. No flesh is saved by works. Ephesian is for the church Age saint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John81 Posted March 16, 2014 Members Share Posted March 16, 2014 The clear teaching of no works ever saving anyone, not in part or in whole, runs throughout Scripture, not just in Ephesians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members No Nicolaitans Posted March 16, 2014 Members Share Posted March 16, 2014 Okay, I wasn't going to respond on this thread anymore until I saw that you not only misrepresented what I said, but you LIED about what I said. What's sad is the fact that you came back and added these lies long after you originally posted your original response. I emphasized the pertinent parts of your lies and my actual statements for you to see for yourself... Lie #1... Did you notice how NoNic first accuses me of not studying these things out and then subtly implies that they are Ruckman's Teachings. How would he know any of that for sure unless he is Omnipotent. I have never checked to see if Ruckman even taught any of this because I can't afford to buy his books and I only borrowed one of them years ago. But I guess I can take NoNic's word for it seeing he knows everything and I just hadn't studied it out. What I actually said... If someone stands at the Great White Throne Judgment, they'll go to the lake of fire. Case closed. This will be my last post here, because it's serving no purpose. AV, I don't doubt that you've studied these things out; however, every view that you've put forth here and on other parts of Online Baptist (that I've seen) is Ruckman Theology. Now, whether you subscribe to Ruckman's views on purpose or not, I don't know; however, you put these topics out as though you've studied them and came up with all of these answers...when to me, it looks like you've allowed Ruckman to influence your beliefs, and you're putting forth Ruckmanism. I'm not accusing you of copying Ruckman...just saying that it appears you've been heavily influenced by him. If not, I apologize. If you like Ruckman, that's fine. I personally disagree with much of what he espouses, but we are free to believe what we want. I hope you have a good day. Lie #2... Did you notice how NoNic first accuses me of not studying these things out and then subtly implies that they are Ruckman's Teachings. How would he know any of that for sure unless he is Omnipotent. I have never checked to see if Ruckman even taught any of this because I can't afford to buy his books and I only borrowed one of them years ago. But I guess I can take NoNic's word for it seeing he knows everything and I just hadn't studied it out. What I actually said... If someone stands at the Great White Throne Judgment, they'll go to the lake of fire. Case closed. This will be my last post here, because it's serving no purpose. AV, I don't doubt that you've studied these things out; however, every view that you've put forth here and on other parts of Online Baptist (that I've seen) is Ruckman Theology. Now, whether you subscribe to Ruckman's views on purpose or not, I don't know; however, you put these topics out as though you've studied them and came up with all of these answers...when to me, it looks like you've allowed Ruckman to influence your beliefs, and you're putting forth Ruckmanism. I'm not accusing you of copying Ruckman...just saying that it appears you've been heavily influenced by him. If not, I apologize. If you like Ruckman, that's fine. I personally disagree with much of what he espouses, but we are free to believe what we want. I hope you have a good day. Childish Mockery #1... Did you notice how NoNic first accuses me of not studying these things out and then subtly implies that they are Ruckman's Teachings. How would he know any of that for sure unless he is Omnipotent. I have never checked to see if Ruckman even taught any of this because I can't afford to buy his books and I only borrowed one of them years ago. But I guess I can take NoNic's word for it seeing he knows everything and I just hadn't studied it out. What I actually said... If someone stands at the Great White Throne Judgment, they'll go to the lake of fire. Case closed. This will be my last post here, because it's serving no purpose. AV, I don't doubt that you've studied these things out; however, every view that you've put forth here and on other parts of Online Baptist (that I've seen) is Ruckman Theology. Now, whether you subscribe to Ruckman's views on purpose or not, I don't know; however, you put these topics out as though you've studied them and came up with all of these answers...when to me, it looks like you've allowed Ruckman to influence your beliefs, and you're putting forth Ruckmanism. I'm not accusing you of copying Ruckman...just saying that it appears you've been heavily influenced by him. If not, I apologize. If you like Ruckman, that's fine. I personally disagree with much of what he espouses, but we are free to believe what we want. I hope you have a good day. Childish Mockery #2... Did you notice how NoNic first accuses me of not studying these things out and then subtly implies that they are Ruckman's Teachings. How would he know any of that for sure unless he is Omnipotent. I have never checked to see if Ruckman even taught any of this because I can't afford to buy his books and I only borrowed one of them years ago. But I guess I can take NoNic's word for it seeing he knows everything and I just hadn't studied it out. What I actually said... If someone stands at the Great White Throne Judgment, they'll go to the lake of fire. Case closed. This will be my last post here, because it's serving no purpose. AV, I don't doubt that you've studied these things out; however, every view that you've put forth here and on other parts of Online Baptist (that I've seen) is Ruckman Theology. Now, whether you subscribe to Ruckman's views on purpose or not, I don't know; however, you put these topics out as though you've studied them and came up with all of these answers...when to me, it looks like you've allowed Ruckman to influence your beliefs, and you're putting forth Ruckmanism. I'm not accusing you of copying Ruckman...just saying that it appears you've been heavily influenced by him. If not, I apologize. If you like Ruckman, that's fine. I personally disagree with much of what he espouses, but we are free to believe what we want. I hope you have a good day. ...and out of respect for you and Christian deportment, I ended my statements sincerely with the following... If someone stands at the Great White Throne Judgment, they'll go to the lake of fire. Case closed. This will be my last post here, because it's serving no purpose. AV, I don't doubt that you've studied these things out; however, every view that you've put forth here and on other parts of Online Baptist (that I've seen) is Ruckman Theology. Now, whether you subscribe to Ruckman's views on purpose or not, I don't know; however, you put these topics out as though you've studied them and came up with all of these answers...when to me, it looks like you've allowed Ruckman to influence your beliefs, and you're putting forth Ruckmanism. I'm not accusing you of copying Ruckman...just saying that it appears you've been heavily influenced by him. If not, I apologize. If you like Ruckman, that's fine. I personally disagree with much of what he espouses, but we are free to believe what we want. I hope you have a good day. Thank you AV; you've shown me more about you than I wanted to know. How sad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AVBibleBeliever Posted March 16, 2014 Members Share Posted March 16, 2014 You have the attitude of a true Nicolaitan. No Nic you did attack me by using words like "I don't know if you studied" listen if you don't know, don't say those words. for a real spiritual man would have never posted lies and distrotions. Any words that left you finger tips that were not a proven fact should have never appeared in your most to begin with because you are then just maligning or lying. Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. You deliberately used speech in writing that reflected that made you sound as if you did not know but then connect it all to a man I don't know and you have no way to know me. And obviously you know Mr Ruckman way better than the rest of us to make such claims with words like "don't know". So in fact this means your whole post was just a lie and distortions to attack me and place me in a bag or box with a man you dislike. And with absolutely no proof what so ever, and with cleverly disguised mischief you made a post full of false statement and distortions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Covenanter Posted March 16, 2014 Members Share Posted March 16, 2014 I've been following this thread without contributing so far - but now you need a voice of Christian common sense. I hate squabbling & libel accusations against supposed brothers in Christ. The accusations cast serious doubt on whether true believers are involved. I suggest first we need to consider whether Jesus & his Apostles were teaching primarily for their followers, particularly for the soon to be formed church, or for a future millennial dispensation when the Jewish nation finally got the message the Jesus is the Messiah. I hold to the view that we should read Scripture knowing that it was initially intended for its immediate readers, but has application to ALL its readers. e.g. The letters in Revelation are specific, but all conclude with: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; We believe Hebrews was written primarily to Jewish Christians including presumably some who were wavering, even asking Where is the promise of his coming? A question that troubled the Thessalonians who were concerned about believers who had died, & Paul specifically addressed. There is no hint that the writer had in mind future dispensations of Jews. He was addressing his readers. The opening verses make that clear: God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, Not some "end-of-time" last days, but these last days. We must read & understand the Scriptures as they are, in their time & place context, while being aware that: the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. I endorse the OP that emphasised that the warnings in Heb. 6 are for those associating with believers, without a real, living faith in the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ. There are many people mentioned in the Gospels & Acts who were fully aquainted with everything Jesus taught & claimed to be, even pretended followers, who turned from him. The Hebrews letter written before the destruction would be very relevant to the Christian Jews in Jerusalem & Judea. Where would they stand during the intense persecution they were facing? The message is clear: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. ..... 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. 10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. 11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: 12 that ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. Tasting is NOT experiencing. Those who turn from the Gospel & deny Jesus will be lost - they did not show things that accompany salvation. We have such in our churches - who are happy to continue with us while the way is smooth, but who turn aside and sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth. The warnings are for a purpose, but that purpose is to encourage believers to continue faithfully & not turn aside. God is faithful, & those saved are saved for eternity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members swathdiver Posted March 16, 2014 Author Members Share Posted March 16, 2014 Candle, I will admit that believing as I do regarding Heb 6:4-8 and Heb 10:26, and other verses, I have often doubted my standing in Christ. It has at times hindered my spiritual progress and caused me to focus inward only to find nothing good there. But I cannot see how those verses support eternal security. On the contrary, I see them as severe warnings against willful sin and falling away. If I'm going to heaven no matter what I do, why not "break out the booze and have a ball" to quote a song from so many years ago. Nevertheless I appreciate what you have shared above. It's ironic that the IFB holds to eternal security but preaches so hard against sinning while churches that hold to losing salvation are not so militant against sin. The trouble is Donillo, you have differing definitions on what key words in those passages mean. "Enlightened", "Heavenly Gift" and "partakers of the Holy Ghost" all need to be correctly defined to understand that this passage teaches eternal security among other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Standing Firm In Christ Posted March 16, 2014 Members Share Posted March 16, 2014 Enlightened = photizo - Outline of Biblical Usage: to give light, to shine to enlighten, light up, illumine to bring to light, render evident to cause something to exist and thus come to light and become clear to all to enlighten, spiritually, imbue with saving knowledge to instruct, to inform, teach to give understanding to * note that enlightened does not necessarily mean one is saved. Enlightened can also mean to teach or instruct. Of the heavenly = epouranios - existing in heaven things that take place in heaven the heavenly regions heaven itself, the abode of God and angels the lower heavens, of the stars the heavens, of the clouds the heavenly temple or sanctuary of heavenly origin or nature Gift simply means gift. Partaking = metochos - sharing in, partaking a partner (in a work, office, dignity) Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Standing Firm In Christ Posted March 16, 2014 Members Share Posted March 16, 2014 The thing I see in hebrews 6:4-6 in light of the Greek "metochos" is it is speaking of a saved people. They are said to have partnered with the Holy Ghost. Does the Holy Ghost "partner with" the unsaved? Light has no fellowship with darkness. Hebrews 6:4 (KJV) 4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, Hebrews 6:5 (KJV) 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, Hebrews 6:6 (KJV) 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. What we need to look at is verse six. It does not say, "when they shall fall away," but "if." If is not definite. Notice Paul's words later in that chapter... Hebrews 6:9 (KJV) 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. The saved will always bear fruit that evidence their Salvation. Hebrews 6 does not teach one can lose ones Salvation. Rather, it teaches Salvation will be evidenced by fruit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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