In Defense Of Alcohol, God's Blessing To Man

[Jeffrey]

2Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
 
The AV Holy Bible is already interpreted for you all you need to do is study, rightly divide, and apply it.

Peter isn't saying that. Peter I saying that Scripture is inspired by God and not man, and I hate to tell you, the av1611 KJV has nothing to do with that!

That's a discussion for another thread

[TheSword]

One with common sense would know if they are being moderate or overusing to excess, having too much too often.

 

Both common sense and moderate are hugely subjective terms. What is too much? How does one drink responsibly without crossing into drunkenness and therefore sinning? Is there some frame of reference you would give someone wanting to pick up drinking in moderation to help them do it responsibly?

[no name joe]

Jeffery, 

 

Why are you trying to convince people who believe it is wrong to drink alcohol that it is ok?  I do not understand.

 

I agree with you that I do not believe it is wrong to do so in moderation.  However, I would never try to convince someone who believes it is wrong otherwise.  

 

This is not an issue worth arguing about.  No one will change anyone's mind.  Each believer can read and apply the Scripture as the Holy Spirit directs them.  So go on and live your life.  But why must you try to convince others they are wrong?  Why do you have a need to argue about this point?

[AVBibleBeliever]

Peter isn't saying that. Peter I saying that Scripture is inspired by God and not man, and I hate to tell you, the av1611 KJV has nothing to do with that!

That's a discussion for another thread

And you have no right to privately interpret God's inspired sure word as found in the AV text which is God's preserved word for English people today.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

No, I reject your teaching which is contradictory to Scripture! I have shown you passages where God calls it a blessing and is permissible, yet you still call it sin!
Let me ask you, is alcohol sin?

alcohol is the result of sin. Drinking alcohol is sin. Especially in light of the fact that one's senses are dulled by alcohol yet that one insists that alcohol is a blessing.

[GraceSaved]

Both common sense and moderate are hugely subjective terms. What is too much? How does one drink responsibly without crossing into drunkenness and therefore sinning? Is there some frame of reference you would give someone wanting to pick up drinking in moderation to help them do it responsibly?

Shouldn't a person know their own limits?  Just as with food.  We know when we're getting full and should stop eating.  Some people don't.  They keep eating until they become so stuffed they can't move.

[Jeffrey]

Remind me what the question was? Sorry, sometimes there are so many points and questions among several posts it's easy to accidentally overlook some.

Remind me what the question was? Sorry, sometimes there are so many points and questions among several posts it's easy to accidentally overlook some.

I know what you mean!!!

If wine was non alcohol, then why did Paul in Romans 14 address the issue of causing a brother to stumble by partaking in a non alcoholic drink, why would anyone be offended?
In Collosians 2. What would Paul tell the Collosian church not let anyone judge you for what you drink? Why would u be judged for drinking a non alcoholic drink?

[Jeffrey]

Matt, I'll get to your other post later,..

[Standing Firm In Christ]

No, I reject your teaching which is contradictory to Scripture! I have shown you passages where God calls it a blessing and is permissible, yet you still call it sin!

Let me ask you, is alcohol sin?

Actually, my teaching is in perfect agreement with Scripture.  Your alcohol befuddled mind won't allow you to see it though.

[Jeffrey]

Shouldn't a person know their own limits?  Just as with food.  We know when we're getting full and should stop eating.  Some people don't.  They keep eating until they become so stuffed they can't move.

And people who have relations with their wive start to look outside of their marriage for satisfaction,....

[Jeffrey]

Actually, my teaching is in perfect agreement with Scripture. Your alcohol befuddled mind won't allow you to see it though.

And you say that without knowing my drinking habits,... Funny

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Shouldn't a person know their own limits?  Just as with food.  We know when we're getting full and should stop eating.  Some people don't.  They keep eating until they become so stuffed they can't move.

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Since alcohol has the ability to deceive, can it truthfully be said one knows his own limits?  I submit to you that one who drinks has already been deceived and therefore is over the limits that he assumes he has.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

And you say that without knowing my drinking habits,... Funny

Your posts on this forum betray you.

[TheSword]

Shouldn't a person know their own limits?  Just as with food.  We know when we're getting full and should stop eating.  Some people don't.  They keep eating until they become so stuffed they can't move.

 

So all you would say to someone who has never drank before is, "you should know when to stop."? Drinking alcohol and eating are so vastly different they can't even compare. You're able to gauge fullness shortly after each bite. Alcohol soaks in over time, especially on a stomach full of starchy food, and if one drinks too quickly they'll feel fine one minute and be falling over the next. That seems rather unkind to me to send a brother/sister off to try to toe the line of sin with no warning on where the line is and how to avoid it. Here's the problem with this line of reasoning...no matter how you slice it, every drink takes one step closer to an invisible line and is a flirtation with sin. Consider the following response I wrote to a guy I knew about a year ago who made a similar argument when we were discussing this (the bolded title portion was the point the guy made):

 

The Bible says not to get drunk, but doesn’t say not to drink (Eph 5:18; Titus 2:2, 4, 6; 1 Cor 5:11)

Clearly you can’t get drunk on something non-alcoholic.  An important facet of this, though, is what constitutes being drunk, or rather where is the point of consumption where one is no longer of sound mind or in control.  Where is this point and how does one know when they’ve reached it?  More importantly, how does one know WHEN they will reach it so that they may stop before becoming intoxicated?  Indeed, this point is different for every individual.  However, it also varies for the individual based on numerous outlying factors such as hydration level, recent and subsequent food intake, type and content of the food consumed, blood sugar levels and sensitivity to its changes, etc.

 

Also of importance is what marks the point at which one crosses from sobriety to intoxication?  A buzz?  Slurred speech? A dizzy feeling?  I contend that is the very moment one’s thought process is altered and their ability to discern right from wrong begins to diminish.  Speaking from experience as both a participant and an observer, this typically happens even before a person feels a “buzz” and continues to get worse as alcohol continues to enter the system and ends only when all alcohol is metabolized out.  The bottom line on my point here is that if your assertion that it only becomes bad or sinful when one crosses the line from sobriety to intoxication then drinking any amount of alcohol is playing a very dangerous game.   Every sip of alcohol is like playing Russian roulette with sin because you don’t know which chamber (or sip) is loaded with a bullet (or sin).  The only certainty is that there is a bullet somewhere in your glass or bottle.  It is trying to get as close to the line as possible without stepping over it and incurring consequence.  The problem is that the line is so blurry that there’s no way to tell when one is about to cross it.

 

Additionally, I think this line of thought also confuses what is the cause and what is the effect.  This says that drunkenness/intoxication is the cause of debauchery (sin).  However, the nature of the wine (alcohol) is what causes the debauchery and drunkenness/intoxication is merely the description of the condition.  From a technical and teleological perspective, the alcohol is absorbed into the bloodstream which then immediately begins to degrade motor skills and cognitive ability.  It is not as if the body waits until there is a predetermined amount of alcohol stored up in the system to begin to exhibit symptoms of intoxication.  From the moment the first sip of alcohol enters the system it begins to cause an effect and the accumulation of alcohol merely causes accumulated effect.  To bring this back around to Biblical principle, consider the following excerpt from Wine in the Bible: A Biblical Study on the Use of Alcoholic Beverages:

 

“I found one of the most powerful Biblical indictments against intoxicating wine in Ephesians 5:18, where Paul condemns wine as the cause of debauchery and shows the irreconcilable contrast between the spirit of wine and the Holy Spirit of God. To my great surprise, however, I found that most English translations and commentaries have chosen to translate or interpret Ephesians 5:18 by making "drunkenness" rather than "wine" the cause of debauchery. This was surprising to me because not only the Catholic and Protestant Italian translations, with which I am most familiar, but also numerous other ancient and modern translations, all translate Paul’s text as saying that in the very nature of wine is debauchery…The translators’ bias toward wine became most evident in the study of the apostolic admonitions to abstinence, expressed through the verb nepho and the adjective nephalios. The first meaning of the verb is "to abstain from wine" and of the adjective "abstinent, without wine." Yet these words have been consistently translated with their secondary sense of being "temperate, sober, steady," rather than by their primary sense of being "abstinent." Such biased and inaccurate translations have misled many sincere Christians into believing that the Bible teaches moderation in the use of alcoholic beverages, rather than abstinence from them.

 

It was equally surprising for me to discover that the fundamental reason given by Peter and Paul for their call to a life of mental vigilance and physical abstinence is eschatological, namely, preparation to live in the holy presence of Christ at His soon Coming...To abstain from intoxicating substances represents a tangible response to God’s invitation to make concrete preparation for the physical return of Christ.”

[Jeffrey]

Jeffery, 
 
Why are you trying to convince people who believe it is wrong to drink alcohol that it is ok?  I do not understand.
 
I agree with you that I do not believe it is wrong to do so in moderation.  However, I would never try to convince someone who believes it is wrong otherwise.  
 
This is not an issue worth arguing about.  No one will change anyone's mind.  Each believer can read and apply the Scripture as the Holy Spirit directs them.  So go on and live your life.  But why must you try to convince others they are wrong?  Why do you have a need to argue about this point?

Why do you bring common sense to this? ;)