In Defense Of Alcohol, God's Blessing To Man

[1John2:15-17]

Ahhh, the "permissive will of God."

[LindaR]

Please read the book entitled Bible Wines and the Laws of Fermentation by William Patton (Challenge Press). More than a hundred years ago, this preacher was the only one in his town who believed in total abstinence. He saw that it was necessary to make an extensive study to see what scripture taught. This book is the result of that labor.  It refutes all those “reasons”/excuses professing Christians give to justify drinking alcohol. 

 

Scripture says “Abstain from all appearance of evil” (1 Thessalonians 5:22).  It also says not to allow your “liberty” become a “stumblingblock to them that are weak.” (1 Corinthians 8:9) or “put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in your brother’s way.” (Romans 14:13)   How many “babes in Christ” have “stumbled” and become drunkards...and perhaps died....because they saw you “drinking in moderation” and you telling them the lie that drinking in moderation (social drinking) was perfectly fine.  What kind of Christian witness is that? 

 

BTW, using 1 Timothy 5:23 is NOT a very good “proof” text for justifying social drinking.                                                                

 

Thank you for those links, Bro. Keith....and welcome to OnlineBaptist!

[Jeffrey]

as I said, "This is how sophist reason using questions upon questions and never offer a clear answer."

 

these questions gender strife and not edification and the person should be avoided.

 

 1Tim 6:4,5  He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
 2Tim 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
 Tit 3:9 ¶ But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

the same could be said of you, I have asked many times, and has never been answered. If wine was bad, then why did Paul say in Romans 14, that drinking wine would be offensive, if it wasn't fermented? who would be offended by a brother drinking an unfermented drink?

Or why would he write not to let any man judge you for drinking an unfermented drink in Collossians 2?

 

Nobody has answered this yet

[Jeffrey]

It never fails... When the one advocating the sin of drinking alcohol can't justify his sin using Scripture, he always runs to the food and sex argument.

Sad.

if you can't see it, your either lying or just are not looking

[Jeffrey]

The focus of the text is on tithing for the purpose of acknowledging God's provision (v. 24) and reinforcing the need to revere and honor God (v. 23). Verses 25-26 are an allowance to depart from God's stated method if it is unfeasible due to location. Additionally, this was a set of instructions given to Israelites that falls between dietary laws and a command to take care of the Levites; so we have to be careful on which parts can be taken as normative principle and what is incidental to the main point. Further, this tithing and feast was done only once a year, so the allowance was only minimally applicable even to the Israelites. Also, the passage is, at best, neutral on the listed items and you have to read into the text to assert that all of them are being called blessings. The blessings that it is talking about rejoicing in is the increase of goods and provision for living, not the nature of the items consumed.

 

If you wanted to try to make a direct application for the action today, the best you could do that is in line with the historical-cultural context is to take what you would normally tithe to your church (if you're inclined to such) and go buy whatever you desire and take it to the church to eat. However, you could only do this if it was too burdonsome to take your tithe directly to the church. Therefore, the notion of grabbing a beer with your regular wages to drink at home or at a restaurant for private enjoyment is way outside the context of the passage.

I appreciate, that you admit it, can you show me where God says that you can only drink/consume during that time?

The application today shown that in pauls letter to the Romans, Collosians, Timothy Ephesians and Corinthians that alsohol use was wide spread and nowhere in the NT was put any limitations to it's use unless abuse till intoxication

[Jeffrey]

If trying is what you're doing, doing is what you're not.

How can one say he is bringing glory to God, or trying to bring glory to God, when one is rejecting wisdom?

Proverbs 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

We know your argument, that God didn't say that, Solomon did.  News Flash!!, God had men record it in His Word for a reason.

Proverbs 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:

Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

Wine and strong drink deceive the one drinking them... if abused, yes

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Wine causes people to act in an ungodly manner. People intoxicated act in an ungodly manner, People holding on to morality and not Jesus is acting in an ungodly manner

Proverbs 23:29-31 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
GS answered this already
And no, verse 31 is not speaking to one who has been drinking.  The writer said, "who hath woe?..."  He then answered, "THEY that..."

He did not answer, "You who..."  He answered, "THEY THAT..." indicating he was referring to someone other than the person he was speaking to.   There is no indication in that verse that says Solomon's son was drinking alcohol. 

And the rebuke was, "Look not thou..." not after you, but "when IT".  Speaking of when the wine is fermented.  Wisdom says, don't even look at it when it is fermented.

Sadly, some would rather reject wisdom and do what seems right in their own eyes.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Verse 29 is what happens when you do verse 30.  Verse 31 is advice to avoid verse 29.
 
Continuing to quote the same verses over and over doesn't change their meaning.  If God says "look not" then even that of itself is sin. It's a figure of speech not to be taken literally. 
 
Can't lead a horse to water...or wine.  Ha ha ha!

verse 31 DOES NOT jump back to verse 29. If it did, it would say , LOOK NOT THOU UPON THE WINE WHEN YOU HAVE... Instead, it says, LOOK NOT THOU UPON THE WINE WHEN IT... .

The little word IT is what you are totally ignoring. IT refers to the wine. And God's Word of wisdom is don't even look at wine (IT) when IT is fermented.

[Jeffrey]

Someone used Wikipedia on previous page as a reference for alcohol in the Bible. Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Anyone can add to the definition. You or I can add to any definition or explanation.

 

Quoting Luther is NOT quoting the Bible. Luther's writings are NOT above God's!

And yet people here who are teetotalers are quoting from commentaries written by people who are teetotalers.

[Jeffrey]

Not today, but in 1611 they would have recoiled in horror if I asked them to bring home some wine.  Like I told you before, context is key to understanding this subject.  If I asked for some "new wine" that would be quite alright.  

 

I'll say it again for you Jeffrey, only until about sixty years ago, wine and grape juice were known by the same word and differentiated by context.  Do you have any dictionaries like a Funk & Wagnalls from the 1940s for example?

 

 

"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them." - Romans 16:17

And in Acts 2 the Apostles were accused on being drunk on 'new wine"

No I do not, so are you trying to say words dont mean what they say? because then you are opening a Pandora's Box

[Jeffrey]

This is incorrect, please read my above post (#109). The proverb is addressed to the son who is being told to "look not". You have to do some linguistic acrobatics with the grammar to say the command to "look not" is directed only at people who are drinking in excess.

 

 

 

Yes, it has; it is the nature of language for words to change meaning over time. It is only within the last century or so what wine has been taken to mean only the alcoholic variety.  It has historicaly carried both meanings in English, Greek, and Hebrew.

Then answer my question from Romans and Collosians then

[Jeffrey]

Way of Life Encyclopedia

WINE

The following study is by Bruce Lackey:

 

1. The word wine in the Bible is a generic term; sometimes it means grape juice; sometimes it means alcoholic beverages. The following verses prove that the word "wine" can mean fresh grape juice, the fruit of the vine: Deuteronomy 11:14;  2 Chronicles 31:5; Nehemiah 13:15; Proverbs 3:10; Isaiah 16:10; 65:8; 1Timothy 5:23.

 

2. The context will always show when "wine" refers to alcoholic beverages. In such cases, God discusses the bad effects of it and warns against it. An example would be Genesis 9, Noah's experience after the Flood. Verse 21 (Genesis 9:21), "and he drank of the wine, and was drunken," clearly refers to alcoholic beverage.

 

Proverbs 20:1 speaks of the same thing, warning that "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Alcoholic wine is deceptive; but how? In the very way that people are advocating today, by saying that drinking a little bit will not hurt. Everyone admits that drinking too much is bad; even the liquor companies tell us not to drive and drink, but they insist that a small amount is all right. However, that is the very thing that is deceptive. Who knows how little to drink? Experts tell us that each person is different. It takes an ounce to affect one, while more is necessary for another. The same person will react to alcohol differently, depending on the amount of food he has had, among other things. So, the idea that "a little bit won't hurt" is deceptive, and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise!

 

Proverbs 23:30-31 refers to alcoholic wine, because it tells us in the previous verse that those who drink it have woe, sorrow, contentions, babbling, wounds without cause, and redness of eyes. What a graphic description of those who "tarry long" at alcoholism. Verses 32-35 continue the same description; context always makes it clear when alcohol is meant. If "wine" may mean fresh grape juice or alcohol, how can we know which is intended? The context determines the meaning. We can tell when "wine" means fresh grape juice and when it means alcoholic beverage by reading the context, just as we have done in the previous paragraphs.

 

3. Scripture warns against the drinking of alcoholic wine. The Bible is consistent on this, both in the Old and New Testaments.

 

The two previously quoted passages, Proverbs 20:1 and Proverbs 23:29-35, are good examples of scriptural warnings against consuming alcohol. Proverbs 23:32 says "at the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder." Verse 33 shows that it will cause one to look at strange women (that is, not one's wife) and to say perverse things, or things which he would not say if he were sober. Verse 34 predicts that it will cause death, such as drowning, or loneliness, such as lying upon the top of a mast. Verse 35 warns against numbness ("they have beaten me and I felt it not") and "addiction ("when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again").

 

Proverbs 31:4-5 teaches, "It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: lest they drink and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted." The danger is obvious. By the way, Proverbs 31:6-7 give us the only legitimate use of alcoholic wine in Scripture. "Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more." This would be using it as an anesthetic; a pain killer. But this is not for everyone; he says in v. 6, "unto him that is ready to perish." Of course, they did not have all the pain killers that we have today. In our time, it would not be necessary to do this. We have many anesthetics available for those who are dying. Then, about the only thing available to the average person would have been some kind of alcohol. Alcohol is a depressant; it is not a stimulant, as some think. After several drinks, one gets dizzy; then he will pass out. So this passage teaches that alcoholic beverage would be only for the person who is ready to die; there would be no hope for his life. All that would be possible would be to ease his pain and help him forget his misery.

 

Another passage is Isaiah 5:11. "Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!" Obviously this is alcoholic, because it inflames. Why does he say, "Woe unto them"? Verse 12 answers, "...they regard not the work of the Lord, neither consider the operation of his hands." Everyone knows that when one gives himself to the drinking of alcoholic beverage, he will not be more spiritual, more desirous of learning the Word of God. To the contrary, it causes a person to ignore the Lord. Verses 13-14 reveal two other serious results: people go into captivity (become slaves to something or someone) and Hell enlarges itself! The drinking of alcoholic wine has caused Hell to be enlarged! God does not want anyone to go to Hell; He has given the greatest, dearest gift that He possibly could, to rescue sinners from it. He never made Hell for people. The Lord Jesus Christ said that Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels (Mt 25:41). However, because of evil alcohol, Hell has had an enlargement campaign. Here, then, is a clear warning against drinking alcohol, because God does not want anyone to go to Hell.

 

Isaiah 28:7-8 continues the warning. "But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean." What a tragic thing, that even in the days of Isaiah, the priests and prophets were engaged in the drinking of alcoholic wine! Thus we see that the problem of preachers recommending alcohol is not new. Six hundred years before Christ, demon alcohol had worked its way into religion.

***************************************************

IS IT ALRIGHT FOR A CHRISTIAN TO DRINK MODERATELY?

 

(1) No, even slight drinking impairs one's thinking and lowers alertness to spiritual danger (1 Peter 5:8-9).

(2) No, Christians are not to be controlled by liquor (Ephesians 5:18).

(3) No, Christians are priests, and the Bible forbids priests to drink (1 Peter 2:9; Leviticus 10:8,11).

(4) No, Christians are not to touch the unclean thing (2 Corinthians 6:17-7:1).

(5) No, Christians are to abstain from every form of evil (1Thessalonians 5:22).

(6) No, Christians who drink cause others to stumble (Romans 14:21).

(7) No, wine is a mocker and a deceiver (Proverbs 20:1).  No man who takes an alcoholic beverage to his lips knows exactly where it will lead.

***************************************************

So Linda, everyone freaks out because quote Luther and Calvin and you throw Lacky at me? hypocritical?

[DaveW]

A slightly different tack then, and I really don't think there can be a satisfactory answer on this point - when does drinking become intoxication?

The reason I bring this up is that everyone agrees that drunkenness is sinful, but where is the line between drink and drunk?

From a scientific point of view, the first drink has measurable effects, but most people are not considered drunk at that point.

So where does the conscientious Christian draw the line?

I ask this genuinely, not in an argumentative sense.

I know we have all had the experience of a friend who thinks he is OK to drive, but you know that he is too drunk - he just doesn't realise it.

Where does liberty become sin?

[Jeffrey]

 

It's simply amazing how people can twist Scripture to justify whatever their favorite sin is.Its simply amazing that people can twist Scripture to justify their positions that were never intended to be and never held the previous 1800 years in churches around the world until the good ole' USA started the Temperance Movement in the early 1800';s 

It's no wonder that our country and our churches are in the shape they're in when people would rather attempt to make themselves feel less guilty for doing something God would not want us doing(and makes it quite clear in His Word) than to just live for God and tell others about Jesus Christ.  Our churches are the way they because they have gotten away from preaching the Gospel and getting tied down in political issues and have people more concerned of being separated(a heart issue) and running from culture rather than engaging it. Seeing unbelievers as the enemy rather than people in need of Jesus.

 

Go try and hand someone a Gospel tract with a beer in your hand and see how serious someone will take you.Have you ever done it?? I have and it is effective

  Go try and talk to someone about Christ while sipping on a Jack and Coke.  I'm sure they'll take you seriously....Jack and coke never, a wheated bourbon is more my speed, and like I said, it is very effective, of course you have to be willing to engage them, talk to them and listen to them and not look down your nose at them in contempt. maybe thats why many believers struggle with evangelism.

The Bible has been quoted quite a bit about this topic, and people would rather wallow in their pet sins than to gain wisdom from God's Word.  But without those verses in play, these two should be enough to stay away from alcohol:
 

Abstain from all appearance of evil. Not even close to talking about alcohol

(1 Thessalonians 5:22)

 

It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. 

(Romans 14:21)

and you shoot yourself in the foot with this argument; Paul is saying that their is nothing wrong with wine, in of itself, but not to make it a stumbling block to fellow believers

Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. 16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of: 17 for the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. 20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. 21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. 22 Hast thou faith? have itto thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

The sin here is causing somebody to stumble, if a brother was in my company and I knew he didn't drink, I wouldn't offer or pressure him into it.

 

I can think of A LOT of evil things that are caused by the very existence of alcohol.  I've been a part of them, and I've seen them first hand.  There is a lot of evil surrounding the use of alcohol.  God is not a part of it, and God is certainly not glorified by it, and to assert as much is foolish.  So yes, we should abstain from alcohol just on the basis of the appearance of evil.

I know several alcoholics and several who are trying to stay away from drinking.  If they see another Christian man drinking...we're doing nothing but giving them the occasion to stumble.  and the answer to this is the Gospel

 

Again....for this to even be a question is silly, IMHO.

 

[Standing Firm In Christ]

The problem is, DaveW, there are varying (and contradicting) views of "moderation"... even amongst those who teach their alleged "moderation."

 

As is evident by the posts in this thread, our drinking posters seem to think one is only to stop drinking when one begins to feel the effects of the alcohol.  The problem with that line of reasoning is that if one is feeling the effects, one is drunker than that one realizes. 

Our state laws (most states) say that a man is not legally drunk until his BAC reaches 0.08%.  At that point, that man is unfit to operate a motor vehicle on a state highway.  I think most "moderationist's" operate on the state's line of reasoning.  They can drink until they themselves notice things that the state recognizes as drunken behavior.


Although they claim "God's permissive will," God's will isn't even in the equation from the moment they lift the glass to their lips.  God's wisdom says not to look upon the wine when it is fermented.  They ignore that instruction, proving their rebellious and sinful nature.  The lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life win out over wisdom.

Proverbs 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:

The wisdom found in the Proverbs of Solomon should be an "ornament of grace" unto their heads.  But instead, they are cast to the ground and trodden under their feet.

[Jeffrey]

A slightly different tack then, and I really don't think there can be a satisfactory answer on this point - when does drinking become intoxication? Here is where I think that Proverbs comes into play where it describes people who have become intoxicated and lose their senses. 
The reason I bring this up is that everyone agrees that drunkenness is sinful, but where is the line between drink and drunk? its up to the individual, my wire drinks half a beer and she never finishes it, she's had enough, Im twice as big as she is, I can handle a little more

From a scientific point of view, the first drink has measurable effects, but most people are not considered drunk at that point.​

So where does the conscientious Christian draw the line?

I ask this genuinely, not in an argumentative sense.

I know we have all had the experience of a friend who thinks he is OK to drive, but you know that he is too drunk - he just doesn't realise it. Here is when somebody has to show self control and understand what God has given him and that person would be respectful of that fact.

Where does liberty become sin?I know people are going to get mad, but like food and sex, when we overindulge