United Church Of God

[Invicta]

Anyone saved is part of the wider group of believers, regardless of whether they are a member of a church, occasionally attend a church, or never set foot in a church.

We know also that as we can not see men's hearts it is possible for an unsaved man to be a member of a church, no matter how diligent the pastor.
BUT God knows the truth....

I say again - the body of Christ never refers to all believers. When viewed in context that becomes clear.

 

 

I have two questions.

 

1:  Is it possible for any saved person to not be a member of a church?  I realise that there may be some cases where someone in say a Moslem country, responds to the gospel he/she heard on a radio broadcast.  

 

2: How many brides does Christ have?

 

3:  How many Churches does Christ build?   (Yes I know it is three but I just thought of that one.)  Mt 16:18  ....I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

[John81]

Yes, that verse is helpful, as are several others that have been put forth. There is only one body of Christ and Scripture says that's born again believers. One can either accept that or not.

[Left the Bldg]

Or 1 Cor 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?  

 

Obviously, Paul was writing to the church at Corinth but the two passage I gave are speaking to individual believers.

[Left the Bldg]

We know there were people in that congregation which called himself a "brother" but he was a fornicator and Paul warned not to associate with such people within the church.

[DaveW]

Yes, that verse is helpful, as are several others that have been put forth. There is only one body of Christ and Scripture says that's born again believers. One can either accept that or not.

In fact John, the ONLY clear statements are that the body is the church. I have already quoted those two verses.

The other 9 instances where the body is spoken of in a relevant way are in a context which indicates local church application.

The body of Christ is never clearly spoken of in a universal sense, and in fact the context always indicates it is local.

Further to that, the word church or churches occurs 117 times in Scripture and in none of those occurrences does it clearly indicate anything other than a local assembly.

How about people study this issue out carefully and look at each relevant verse in its proper biblical context, instead of just accepting what someone once told them (including me).

In both cases (body and church) the majority are clearly local and those that are not are inconclusive and normally not teaching on these subjects but mentioning them incidentally.
None of them clearly teach a universal understanding of either term.

[Left the Bldg]

I have two questions.

 

1:  Is it possible for any saved person to not be a member of a church?  I realise that there may be some cases where someone in say a Moslem country, responds to the gospel he/she heard on a radio broadcast.  

 

2: How many brides does Christ have?

 

3:  How many Churches does Christ build?   (Yes I know it is three but I just thought of that one.)  Mt 16:18  ....I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Christ builds 3 churches?

[No Nicolaitans]

Hebrews: where is this church spoken of?


 22  But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

 23  To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

So then let me ask in light of that - is this church a local assembly?
Yes it is - all assembled in one place - it is just huge - the biggest Mega church ever.

Matthew :
It is the generic usage not particular usage.
Similar to "The car has had a huge impact on our society".
A particular car? No. A universal car? No.
The car generically.

While you are free to disagree with those, there is certainly AT BEST doubtful meaning to the Matthew passage, not clear teaching.
The generic usage fits with the overwhelming majority of usage, therefore it is the most likely understanding.

 

In reference to Hebrews, the verses I quoted are showing the contrast between the law (verses 18-21) and grace (verses 22-24).  I don't agree that it's "local"; it's referring to the entire body of believers (the general assembly and church of the firstborn) that the Hebrews have joined.  After all, it makes it clear in verse 23...

 

Hebrews 12:23

To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

 

The general assembly and church of the firstborn's names are written in heaven. The Hebrews are still on earth, yet they are joined to the general assembly and church of the firstborn.  The Hebrews, by faith in Christ, have left the law and become members of Christ's body and his church.

 

In reference to the verse from Matthew, I don't see that Christ is speaking generically at all.  He's very particular...I will build MY church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against IT.

 

Again, I'm pro-local church, but I see scripture teaching that the lone missionary in darkest Africa (with no converts) is as much a part of the body of Christ and his church as I am.  Though I can't see him, the house-churches in China, the underground believers in Iran, or the believers who live less than a mile from me...Christ can see them, he knows them, and they are part of his body and church.

 

We disagree Bro. Dave. 

[No Nicolaitans]

Christ builds 3 churches?

 

LOL! No Sis. Laura...he said he had two questions, but he asked three instead.  That's why he said, "I know it's 3." 

[Left the Bldg]

LOL! No Sis. Laura...he said he had two questions, but he asked three instead.  That's why he said, "I know it's 3." 

Oh my bad.  LOL!  Must be getting tired.  :-)

[DaveW]

Hebrews 12:22 and 23 are a single sentence and place the general assembly and church of the firstborn in the same setting as the heavenly Jerusalem and company of angels. This does include all believers, but the setting is in heaven - locally.

So we disagree on that.

The Matthew passage could be taken either way, but as the vast majority, the overwhelming majority of passages refer to local only, it makes best sense to read it in conjunction with that understanding.


I am happy for you to disagree on these, but it must be said that your understanding of these verses is not consistent with the normal biblical use of these terms.
They are "non-conforming" usage.

It would not be the only time that the Bible uses a word differently to the majority use, but I prefer to stick with it since it makes sense this way as well.

[No Nicolaitans]

The writer of Hebrews was speaking to Hebrew believers who were already in heaven?

[DaveW]

I have two questions.

1: Is it possible for any saved person to not be a member of a church? I realise that there may be some cases where someone in say a Moslem country, responds to the gospel he/she heard on a radio broadcast.

2: How many brides does Christ have?

3: How many Churches does Christ build? (Yes I know it is three but I just thought of that one.) Mt 16:18 ....I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Invicta, I was not Ignoring your questions but I have answered 1 and 3 already, and I think the bride thing is different subject - to head along that would muddy the waters further.

[Left the Bldg]

Which local church is Jesus referring to in Matthew when he said I will build MY church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. 

[DaveW]

The writer of Hebrews was speaking to Hebrew believers who were already in heaven?

 22  But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23  To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

it is a single continuing thought - take the number "23" out of the middle and how does it read?
Comma, not full stop - continuing thought.

[No Nicolaitans]

 22  But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23  To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

it is a single continuing thought - take the number "23" out of the middle and how does it read?
Comma, not full stop - continuing thought.

 

Yes, I realize that; however, they are WRITTEN in heaven...not in heaven.