God Created Coffee Soooo Good!

[Galations 2:20]

LOL, I would be shaking for sure, HC.  Maybe a man can handle it, but I certainly couldn't.

I drink a lot of coffee each day ... and without any dreaded shakes! I love coffee it is the "nectar of the morning".....

[Left the Bldg]

We already know that there was fermented wine because Noah and Lot got intoxicated from it.

 

Jewish custom required real wine at celebrations.  When Jesus turned water into wine...what was so special about it if it was just grape juice?  It was the best because it was saved for last but yet still in its earliest stage of fermentation.  The more fermented, the stronger the drink.  In the first century they had no way to preserve the juice from fermenting at some stage.

 

If the wine referred to was not in some form of fermented stage, then why did Paul have to tell Timothy to stop abstaining from it and drink a little?  Why would he have to abstain from grape juice?

 

Why does Proverbs 31:6 say to give strong drink to him that is ready to perish?  It was used as a sedative in that instance. Grape juice can't do that.  That's why Jesus denied it when the Roman guard offered it to him on the sponge.  He wasn't going to be sedated but be in full effect of all his faculties when he released his spirit. 

[Galations 2:20]

Now away from coffee and on to alcohol:

 

I believe Christ NEVER drank alcohol as it has yeast and ferments and is a picture of sin and Christ knew no sin.

 

However, I often wonder why was His first miracle to change water into wine when he never drank alcohol?  Somebody please explain this further......

[Left the Bldg]

Now away from coffee and on to alcohol:

 

I believe Christ NEVER drank alcohol as it has yeast and ferments and is a picture of sin and Christ knew no sin.

 

However, I often wonder why was His first miracle to change water into wine when he never drank alcohol?  Somebody please explain this further......

It's only a picture of sin when alcohol is abused which there is much scripture on.  I think the other scriptures where alcohol is used for medicinal purposes and joyous celebrations in moderation are ignored.  I think people picture Jesus drinking wine and getting drunk, which of course, he didn't get drunk and some just can't accept that he drank it because they believe alcohol is a sin.  It's the abuse of alcohol that is the sin. 

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Hate to inform you, but both you ladies are wrong.

Jesus would not have created an alcoholic wine for a group of wedding guests who had already "well drunk."  Matter of fact, they had drank so much that they emptied the bridegroom's house of wine.

So here comes Jesus... and creates between 150 to 180 gallons of more wine for them?   I highly doubt that.  They would have gotten sloshed for sure.

Jesus would not have created an alcoholic wine.  He would have been giving license to sin.  My Bible says He came to seek and to save that which was lost... not to help them further down the road to destruction.

[HappyChristian]

And yet God still says not to look on it when it's fermented...since Jesus is God, the mere fact of that warning lets me know the wine Jesus made wasn't fermented but rather sweet, fresh grape juice.

Jesus was offered vinegar (sour grape juice) mixed with gall while on the cross.The gall was the sedative, not the vinegar.

SFIC, that is true. Had Christ made alcoholic wine, He would have been contributing to drunkenness...

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Grape juice isn't strong drink, but it is wine. Biblically speaking, wine is not always alcoholic. Remember that words change meaning. I don't know why the KJV translators used wine to refer to both, but I do understand that the Biblical meaning may be different than the modern meaning. 

The translators used the word "wine" because they were true to the original Greek and Hebrew when they were translating.

At the time that the 1611 KJB was translated, the word "wine" was a generic word and could mean either fermented or unfermented drink.  It was still used for both fermented or unfermented drink in the 1700's.  I have a dictionary from that era which states such.  When it came to mean only alcoholic drink, I am not sure.

[Arbo]

 

 

 

(Apologies to John81- "A bit similar to proof texting" are my words not his.  Did not realize the letters were not red, showing my response.  Have seen it done by others but haven't quite figured it out yet.)

 

Who is proof texting?

 

Anyone using only select Scriptural passages to make their point while ignoring others that call it into question.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Here is an Old Testament outline that was preached a few years back by a minister named Mark Monte.  Mark emailed the outline to my wife. 
 

 

 Baptist Ministry Seminar – Session 7

The Bible and Beverage Alcohol, Part I

(Prov. 20:1)

I. Beverage Alcohol and the Old Testament

 

A. The word “wine” appears over 200 times in the King James Version of the Old Testament, and it is used as an English translation for several different Hebrew terms.

 

B. God commanded that His priests abstain from the use of beverage alcohol (Lev. 10:8-11), noting that they were to be a holy example to all Israel.

 

C. Samson’s mother was commanded to abstain from beverage alcohol because Samson was to be dedicated to God in a unique way (Judges 13:3, 4). Apparently beverage alcohol and dedication to God are incompatible.

 

D. Israel’s rulers were specifically forbidden from using beverage alcohol (Prov. 31:4, 5).

 

E. Solomon emphasized the importance of avoiding wine that had been fermented: “Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moveth itself aright” (Prov. 23:31).

 

F. The Old Testament repeatedly warns about the evils of beverage alcohol:

 

1. “For the drunkard…shall come to poverty” (Prov. 23:21.

 

2. “Who hath woe? Who hath sorrow? Who hath contentions? Who hath babbling? Who hath wounds without cause? Who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine” (Prov. 23:29, 30).

 

3. “At the last it [beverage alcohol] biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder” (Prov. 23:32).

 

4. “Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people” (Hab. 2:5).

 

G. Several Old Testament references, however, speak of wine as a blessing: Gen. 27:28; Judges 9:13; Ps. 104:14, 15. How can wine be spoken of as both a blessing and a curse?

 

II. The Hebrew Terms for Wine and Their Uses

 

A. The Hebrew words translated “wine” in the Bible do not always mean fermented or intoxicating wine.

 

B. The Hebrew word yayin, most often translated “wine” in the Old Testament, means grape juice in any form—fermented or unfermented. The true meaning can only be determined by the context. Yayin is a general term referring to any beverage—sweet or sour, fermented or fresh—derived from grapes.

 

C. The Hebrew word tirosh, also translated “wine,” in all but one possible case means “new wine,” “unfermented wine.” This word was used repeatedly in the original text in the places where wine has a good textual connotation. Example: Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth and plenty of corn and wine [tirosh—unfermented grape juice](Gen. 27:28). Note the association of fresh corn at harvest with fresh, unfermented grape juice at harvest.

 

D. Many wines of the ancients were boiled or filtered to prevent fermentation, and these were often considered the best wines.

 

E. Having carefully examined the context of the uses of yayin in the Old Testament, Dr. Robert P. Teachout has concluded that this word is intended to mean grape juice 71 times and fermented wine 70 times.

 

F. How can the English reader determine whether the Old Testament is speaking of unfermented, good wine, or fermented, bad wine? Simply examine the context of the verse. Wherever the use of wine is prohibited or discouraged, the reference is to fermented wine. Where its use is encouraged, the reference is to unfermented grape juice.

 

G. Any argument for the use of beverage alcohol must blur the distinction in Old Testament usage of the word “wine.” In addition, such arguments must “explain away” the Bible’s clear condemnation of intoxicating beverages.

part 2 to follow...

 

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Here is the 2nd part of the outline written by Mark Monte:
 

 

 The Bible and Beverage Alcohol, Part II

III. Christ and Wine in the New Testament

A. The Parable of the Wine and the Wineskins (Mt. 9:17; Mk. 2:22; Lk. 5:37-39).

1. The primary message of this parable concerns the change from Mosaic legalism to free grace in Christ. Jesus taught that grace apart from the law could not be poured back into the old wineskin of legalism. New Testament grace is not merely an addition to Old Testament legalism. Grace and legalism do not mix, and attempting to mix them always results in the spilling of grace.

2. Regarding wine, Jesus taught that putting fresh grape juice into an old bottle would hasten the fermentation process due to the yeast deposits left on the previously used container.

3. History has preserved an ancient recipe for keeping wine sweet. Columella, a man contemporaneous with the Apostles, stated that in order to keep wine “always sweet” it must be put in a “new amphora,” or jar.

4. Why do those who have drunk the old wine declare it “better?” Because of the habit forming effect of alcohol. Jesus here acknowledges the addictiveness of alcohol and the fact that alcoholics desire alcohol, not grape juice.

5. The point of the parable is simply this: new wine (grace) is better than old wine (legalism). However, many who had drunk long at the old wine of legalism would prefer it to the new wine of grace. Certainly those who rejected Christ’s message proved His prediction true. Dr. H.A. Ironside writes:

 

And so these Pharisees would go away saying, “We are satisfied with the old wine,” and legalists and worldlings are like that today. They are apparently content with what they are trying to enjoy down here and do not care what God offers them in Christ Jesus.

 

6. Jesus taught that the new, unfermented wine is better!

 

B. Jesus’ Eating and Drinking and the Reaction of the Crowd (Mt. 11:19; Lk. 7:33-35).

1. Jesus here contrasts His ministry with that of John the Baptist. Several important distinctions should be noted:

a. Jesus was called a Nazarene because He came from Nazareth. However, He was not a Nazarite.

b. John the Baptist was a Nazarite, one who had taken a special vow of dedication to God. The vow included several lifestyle restrictions, one of which was abstinence from anything made of grapes—whether alcoholic or not (Num. 6:1-4).

2. Since Jesus was not restricted by the Nazarite vow, He came eating grapes and drinking of the fruit of the vine, all of which was called “wine.”

3. Since the crowd could not criticize John’s ascetic lifestyle, those who rejected his message claimed he was demon possessed.

4. Since Jesus was not an ascetic like John, those who opposed Him criticized his lack of asceticism. (On two other occasions, Jesus’ enemies accused Him of demon possession as well—John 7:20; 8:48).

5. The accusation that Jesus was a “winebibber” was false, just as was the accusation that John was demon possessed. It would be ludicrous for Bible believers to accept the accusations of Jesus’ enemies in order to justify the consumption of beverage alcohol. If their accusations were accurate, Jesus could not be the sinless Son of God!

C. Jesus Making Wine at the Marriage Feast in Cana (John 2:3-10)

1. In considering Jesus’ first miracle, two important principles must govern our thoughts:

a. The wine Jesus made did not conform to modern standards for fermented wine. His wine surpassed the standards of that day and was judged superior to that which had been previously consumed. Because new wine (unfermented) was considered superior to the sour, fermented variety; one could assume that Jesus’ wine was new wine.

b. Whatever the nature of the wine Jesus made, we can be certain that it was consistent with His character. Dr. R.A. Torrey has written:

The wine provided for the marriage festivities at Cana failed. A cloud was about to fall over the joy of what is properly a festive occasion. Jesus came to the rescue. He provided wine, but there is not a hint that the wine He made was intoxicating. It was fresh-made wine. New-made wine is never intoxicating. It is not intoxicating until sometime after the process of fermentation has set in. Fermentation is a process of decay. There is not a hint that our Lord produced alcohol, which is a product of decay and death. He produced a living wine uncontaminated by fermentation.

 

2. The true nature of the wine Jesus made at Cana is unknown. Consider the words of Dr. William Pettingill, one of the last century’s great Bible scholars:

 

I do not pretend to know the nature of the wine furnished by our Lord at the wedding of Cana, but I am satisfied that there was little resemblance in it to the thing described in the Scriptures of God as biting like a serpent and stinging like an adder (Prov. 23:29-32). Doubtless rather it was like the heavenly fruit of the vine that He will drink new with His own in His Father’s kingdom (Matt. 26:29). No wonder the governor of the wedding feast at Cana pronounced it the best wine kept until last. Never before had he tasted such wine, and never did he taste it again.

3. Years ago, Presbyterian scholar Albert Barnes wrote:

 

No man should adduce this instance in favor of drinking wine unless he canprove that the wine made in the “water pots” of Cana was just like the wine which he proposes to drink.

D. The Lord’s Supper (Matthew 26:26-29)

1. Some Christian denominations argue vehemently that Jesus used fermented wine when instituting the Lord’s Supper. In fact, some groups use fermented wine as a matter of conviction, rejecting the use of mere grape juice. Although not a Christian denomination, the Roman Catholic Church also uses fermented wine in the Mass, a custom which has caused widespread alcoholism among priests.

2. In instituting the Lord’s Supper, Jesus used two terms to refer to the liquid representing His blood: “The fruit of the vine” and “the cup.” Can fermented grape juice legitimately be referred to as the “fruit of the vine?” Bible scholar Charles Wesley Ewing states:

 

Fermented wine is not a product of the vine. Chemically it is entirely different from the sweet and unfermented grape juice. Fermented wine is 14% alcohol, and it has other constituents that are not found in fresh grape juice. Alcohol does not grow on the vine. It is not a vine product. Alcohol is the product of decay, the product of fermentation. It is produced by the process of spoiling.

3. The “cup” used in the Lord’s Supper represents Christ’s blood. Interestingly, Moses long before Christ drew a parallel between fresh grape juice and blood. He referred to fresh grape juice as “the pure blood of the grape” (Deut. 32:14). Fresh grape juice, not fermented, best represents blood.

4. In addition, the Old Testament predicts that Christ’s body and blood, even in death, would not see corruption (Ps. 16:10). Fermentation is a process of corruption, and would not be compatible with the uncorrupt nature of Christ’s blood (I Pet. 1:18).

5. Commenting on Psalm 16:10 and Acts 2:31, Dr. John R. Rice has written:

 

The cup the disciples drank at the Lord’s Supper is nowhere called wine, but “the fruit of the vine.” We believe it was simply grape juice. Even if the word wine had been used, wine in the Bible means grape juice, whether fermented or unfermented. Fermented wine, with microbes of decay, would not picture the perfect blood of a sinless Christ.

 

6. Another Bible scholar, William Patton, states:

Leaven, because it was corruption, was forbidden as an offering to God….If leaven was not allowed with the sacrifices, which were the types of the atoning blood of Christ, how much more would it be a violation of the commandment to allow leaven, or that which was fermented, to be the symbol of the blood of atonement? We cannot imagine that our Lord, in disregard of so positive a command, would admit leaven into the element which was to perpetuate the memory of the sacrifice of himself, of which all the other sacrifices were but types.

7. The holy nature of the Lord’s Supper also mitigates against the use of alcoholic wine. Remember that the Old Testament priests were forbidden the use of any fermented wine. The New Testament teaches that Jesus is our High Priest. Certainly He remained consistent with the Old Testament commandment for priestly abstinence.

8. Lastly, Dr. Jack Van Impe has stated:

 

The final statement of our Lord on the Communion service settles the issue. All Christians who take Communion are to do so in anticipation of the coming kingdom. We have already seen that the wine of the kingdom is unfermented. If we are to look forward to the wine of Eden and Cana during the kingdom, it would be inconsistent to use intoxicating wine when remembering the death of our Savior and King.

E. The Wine offered to Jesus on the cross (Mk. 15:23)

1. The wine offered to Jesus at His crucifixion was doubtless of the intoxicating variety. So severe was the punishment of crucifixion that the victim was offered alcoholic wine as an anesthetic.

2. Notice that in His most trying hour, Jesus refused even the relief from pain that alcohol could provide. Alcohol is NEVER an answer to the problems of life. Jesus refused alcohol, and so should we.

 

In Conclusion…

1. The Bible never plainly condones the use of alcoholic wine as a beverage.

2. Alcoholic wine is frequently condemned in the Scriptures.

3. Certain classes of people (priests and kings) were expressly forbidden the use of any alcoholic beverages. (Christians are both kings and priests—Rev. 1:6, 5:10.)

4. There is absolutely no sound Bible evidence that Jesus ever consumed alcoholic wine or commanded its use.

5. There is ample evidence to indicate that Jesus Himself did not make, use, or condone the use of alcoholic wine.

6. It is impossible to use the example of Jesus to justify the imbibing of alcoholic beverages.

 

 

[DaveW]

The wine in the wineskins was most often a boiled down concentrated grape juice.
This was done primarily so that it would not "go off" without the refrigeration that we enjoy today. In this form the fermentation is greatly restricted. This concentrate was usually mixed with water for drinking.
As someone mentioned above, the old wineskins bit was to stop any old off wine from promoting the fermentation process.

Wine in the Bible was not always the same thing (as others have said) - sometimes it was fermented, sometimes not.

Interestingly, I don't remember ever meeting a Christian in favour of drinking alcohol who restricted himself to only wine.
Even if you wish to allow drinking wine, there is no biblical justification for drinking any other form of alcohol - alcohol itself is always condemned in the Bible.
Some seem to find a place of conjecture for wine, but there really can be no disputing that beer, spirits, and liqueurs are NEVER to pass the lips of a God honouring man.

[JerryNumbers]

Now away from coffee and on to alcohol:

 

I believe Christ NEVER drank alcohol as it has yeast and ferments and is a picture of sin and Christ knew no sin.

 

However, I often wonder why was His first miracle to change water into wine when he never drank alcohol?  Somebody please explain this further......

 

Was it really alcoholic wine? If it did it goes against His Fathers teachings.

 

1Ti 3:1 ¶ This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

1Ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

 

As a pastor I cannot drink alcoholic beverages, & I sure would never serve any one alcoholic beverages of any type, even when we observe the Lord's Supper. And if we serve alcoholic wine I could not fully observe the Lord's Supper with the church I pastor.

 

If a church had a recovered alcoholic as a member of their congregation & they served alcoholic wine, that just might be the thing that causes that person to fall off the wagon.

 

Plus if you will do a through research on wine, you will find that even alcoholic wine during the Bible days had very little alcohol in it, not near as much as most wine have today.

[John81]

Some of the arguments here are not all that sound. We need to stick to the sound arguments, I've seen so many Christians use some unsound arguments only to be hammered by those who understood the matter. While it might not be as much a factor talking among ourselves, when outsiders look on and when we are discussing such things in public, we have to be very careful.

 

Just a couple of examples. Yeast is found in most breads and baked goods, yet consuming them isn't sin. If we don't eat in moderation we will either begin to waste away or become obese.

[Left the Bldg]

All of the above are great discussions and I have learned a little of the fermentation process.  However, I just have one question that has not yet been answered.  I understand that such people in offices (deacons, pastors, etc.) or that took vows (Nazarites) were to refrain from alcohol.  Why did Paul tell Timothy to drink a little wine?  If it was just grape juice...why was he refraining from drinking grape juice?

[DaveW]

1Ti 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

I think you are reading into it more than is there.
It doesn't say he had been refraining from wine - it said he had been drinking water only.
I know people today who drink only water - not milk, not coke, not cordials - for health reasons.
It is entirely possible that Timothy had some health problems and so he refrained from drinking anything but water - but Paul is saying to him that drinking wine might help him (not designated alcoholic and not indicated alcoholic by the way - the word itself can be either remember).
Bit it doesn't say that he was specifically refraining from wine, but that he only drank water.