Since The World Began...

[candlelight]

Thank you, Ukulelemike and John.  I have listened to videos and read articles by Kent and Eric Hovind of CSE.

[No Nicolaitans]

I am speaking of a person who definitely believes in God, but only believes that the Bible is a good book for instruction.  They believe that science is strong for evolution.  What scientific resources back up what the Bible says?  Thanks in advance, Dave. 

 

Here's another good source...http://evolutionfacts.com/

 

You could send them the link, and ask them to please check out the "3 Vol. Encyclopedia" section and the "Evolution Handbook (Ev. Cruncher)" section.  The whole site is good though!

[No Nicolaitans]

I am speaking of a person who definitely believes in God, but only believes that the Bible is a good book for instruction.  They believe that science is strong for evolution.  What scientific resources back up what the Bible says?  Thanks in advance, Dave. 

 

candlelight,

 

Since this person views the Bible as they do, my advice is...just as we accept what we believe by faith, get them to understand that what they believe about evolution is a matter of faith.  They are accepting by faith that all they believe is true. Now, the vast majority who accept evolution will adamantly deny this...they will say that it's based on proven facts.  I'll go into a little more detail about that in a minute...just let me say that as someone who works in a scientific field and runs numerous lab tests daily, I understand the fact that it is all a matter of faith. 

 

It's apparent that you care for this person to some degree; therefore, you don't want to attack them.  First, is this person a scientist, or do they just accept what science offers? You don't have to answer that; I was just asking because it would change how some of what I'm about to share would be presented.  Here are some basic questions that you might want to ask them...

 

1.  How do you KNOW that evolution is true?

 

The general answer will usually be that science has proven that evolution is true.

 

2.  Have you personally performed EACH and EVERY lab test or experiment that claims to prove evolution?

 

The obvious and truthful answer is no; therefore, they are accepting by faith that scientists have proven evolution.

 

3.  Were you personally present during the performance of EACH and EVERY lab test or experiment that claims to prove evolution?

 

Again, the obvious and truthful answer is no; therefore, they are accepting by faith that scientists have proven evolution.

 

I'm going to stop with the "personally" and "Each and Every lab test or experiment that claims to prove evolution" now...but just assume it's there in each question.

 

4.  Do you know if the scientists followed a chain of custody while transporting their samples?

 

A chain of custody should always be used to guard against tampering and contamination.  However, I know for a fact that they are often falsified.

 

5.  Do you know if the lab equipment was properly calibrated? 

 

6.  Do you know if the lab equipment was properly calibrated with known standards?

 

7.  Were the standards fresh?

 

8.  Did the scientists follow standard procedures during the tests?

 

9.  Did the scientists record the actual results of the tests?

 

10.  Do all scientists tell the truth?

 

candlelight, I know for a fact that every area that I've mentioned isn't always followed...and that's just basic scientific procedures! Scientists are human, and they look for shortcuts just like anyone else.  I also know for a fact that you can make sure to follow all of those procedures, and you're still not 100% sure that you're getting the correct results...it's all a matter of faith.  

 

Scientists put their faith in their equipment and trust that it will give them correct results, but any scientist worth his salt will admit that you still can't trust it completely.  They will then say that's where "accuracy and precision" come into the picture.  I won't go into "accuracy and precision"...it comes down to this...scientists are using man-made pieces of equipment, that were designed by man, and man also made or programmed that equipment to give the results that man thinks it should give.

 

I'm not saying that science doesn't have any merit by any means.  I'm just saying that there's a WHOLE LOT OF FAITH that scientists (and those who believe evolution) put in their science.

 

They claim to have proof that evolution is true...if that's true, then show it to me.  The fact is, they can't.  They just keep saying it over and over, so people believe it's true.

 

On the other hand, UNLIKE the truth that your friend (and everyone else) wasn't there for each and every experiment (and all the other things I mentioned), so they accept those "supposed" proofs by faith...ANYONE and EVERYONE (who so desires) can take a Bible, read it, and see the truth contained within God's word.  

[DaveW]

Dvd - "God of Wonders" by Eternal Productions. available through www.ubcdirect.com.au (in Australia)
"A Question of Origins" by Eternal Productions.
www.eternal-productions.org

I am sure that both are available from the eternal productions website which I think is US. The second is particularly good for someone who is comparing the two sides.


I do not endorse the ministry in general - But these two videos are good.
I know nothing more of this ministry than these videos and make no comment on any other aspect of them.

[No Nicolaitans]

Dvd - "God of Wonders" by Eternal Productions. available through www.ubcdirect.com.au (in Australia)
"A Question of Origins" by Eternal Productions.
www.eternal-productions.org

I am sure that both are available from the eternal productions website which I think is US. The second is particularly good for someone who is comparing the two sides.


I do not endorse the ministry in general - But these two videos are good.
I know nothing more of this ministry than these videos and make no comment on any other aspect of them.

 

Dave...hope you don't mind me posting these. I've seen God of Wonders but have never seen A Question of Origins.

 

 

[DaveW]

Yep, that's them.
I don't mind in the least.
And considering they produce both of these as DVD's for free distribution, I doubt that the producers would mind either.

[candlelight]

Thanks so much, No Nicolaitans and DaveW.

[TheSword]

I am speaking of a person who definitely believes in God, but only believes that the Bible is a good book for instruction.  They believe that science is strong for evolution.  What scientific resources back up what the Bible says?  Thanks in advance, Dave. 

 

Thank you, Dave.  I have heard of "Answers in Genesis."  I will check it out.  I would appreciate it if you would send me those videos.  Thanks again, brother.

 

AiG is a great resource, but if you really want a science-heavy refutation of evolution and old-earth positions you can go to Creation Ministries Internation (CMI) at www.creation.com

 

It is a ministry run by respected scientists in their fields that include most disciplines relevant to the issue (e.g., geology, biology, physics, chemistry, etc.) One of it's main scientists, Dr. Jonathan Sarfati actually came over from AiG if I remember correctly. He's also written some excellent books (Refuting Evolution, Refuting Evolution 2, and Refuting Compromise) that are great resources if you want to study for your own knowledge or even give to your friend.

 

However, if they do not believe the Bible is the inspired, and therefore inerrant, word of God, then it really doesn't matter. What you have to show them is how their faith and salvation is dependent upon the truth of the Bible. You also have to show them how belief in evolutionary and old-earth theories are every bit as much a position of faith as is Christianity. Be prepared for a long road on this one though because it requires a person to completely change their worldview after a lifetime of indoctrination of evolution being taught as hard fact. My sister-in-law is in a similar place as your friend. It's important not to bombard him/her with more than they are willing to chew on at once. If they go into information overload they'll shut it all out and you'll get nowhere. A good approach is to gently and consistenly offer one or two points about it as the subject arises. If he/she wants more go ahead and feed them all they like, but don't ever force the issue to the point of making them shut down. Most people don't understand the science behind it all, they just know what's what they've been taught their whole life and what is pushed in secular society.

[John81]

Speaking generally here, one word of caution with some young earth, literal six day creation ministries, is to beware of some of their attempts to explain certain things as if what they say is fact, when it's actually conjecture. When I encounter such, I don't dismiss the entire ministry, but I do avoid using that part.

 

As an example, some declare emphatically what leviathan is/was, when the truth is, none of us can say with certainty. We can guess, and some guesses are better than others, but to declare as fact what leviathan refers to, we can't do. To some this is a minor point, but why even open a door for attack which for some would make them cast doubt upon the rest of their work.

 

Some declare things regarding dinosaurs as fact, when again, it's their guess. Not good to express theories as facts, as we should well know.

 

Just be careful with the material and which portions of the material we use.

[candlelight]

Thanks TheSword and John.  This person has only been accustomed to Evolution upon attending a secular university.  I, on the other hand, was raised with Evolution.  I had it shoved down my throat in the public school system in the 60's and 70's.  Thankfully, I did have the RCC to teach me about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.  I just didn't know the plan of salvation, but I am happy I did have some basics.

I will keep that in mind, John.  Thanks again.

[John81]

Thanks TheSword and John.  This person has only been accustomed to Evolution upon attending a secular university.  I, on the other hand, was raised with Evolution.  I had it shoved down my throat in the public school system in the 60's and 70's.  Thankfully, I did have the RCC to teach me about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.  I just didn't know the plan of salvation, but I am happy I did have some basics.

I will keep that in mind, John.  Thanks again.

I remember the first time I had a science teacher really hammering on evolution. I think it was 5th grade. I went home and told my Mom how the teacher said we all came from apes. Mom said, "Well, your Dad's side of the family may have came from apes, but mine came from God." She was joking, of course, and she reminded me of what the Bible says (which I knew from Sunday school). Even so, I had a lot of evolution pumped into my brain all through school and from the TV and movies.

[DaveW]

John's point is of course true also for so called "old earth creationists", Theistic evolutionists, secular evolutionists, and humanistic evolutionists. And most likely any others you can think of.........

[No Nicolaitans]

One more bit of advice...

 

Remember that it's not your job to "make" them believe...that's the Holy Spirit's responsibility.  For that reason, always try to include God's word in with whatever you may be discussing regardless of their view of God's word.  

 

Romans 10:17

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

[Ukulelemike]

I remember the first time I had a science teacher really hammering on evolution. I think it was 5th grade. I went home and told my Mom how the teacher said we all came from apes. Mom said, "Well, your Dad's side of the family may have came from apes, but mine came from God." She was joking, of course, and she reminded me of what the Bible says (which I knew from Sunday school). Even so, I had a lot of evolution pumped into my brain all through school and from the TV and movies.

My father used to say, "Well, we have had a few ancestors who swung from trees, but it wasn't by their tail!"

 

The only thing I distinctly remember about evolution science classes, was my teacher really didnt like Steve and Cindy Garvey. Don't know why, but he used to insult him all the time, calling him "StEEEve GAHRvEEEEy" Seriously, this probabaly helped me keep from falling to evolution, since I didnt really learn anything but that! Lousy teacher, but praise God for him.

[John81]

The science teacher that pushed evolution the most was especially fixated on cavemen and glaciers. It seemed almost everything related back to either cavemen or glaciers with this guy.

 

The way he tried to explain evolution, he made it seem like a fast process even though he would recite the millions of years stuff. The way he explained human evolution, it seemed to me that if I spent most of the summer swimming I would evolve webs between my fingers and toes!