Ray Comfort Ministries/evidence Bible?

[HappyChristian]

Molly's back.  

[candlelight]

Molly's back.  

I just logged off, and I saw this HC.  Yeah, I decided that I am going to be on OB for awhile. 

[candlelight]

John, below is an article about Ray Comfort and "Lordship Salvation."
 

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/ray_comfort-secret.htm 

 

[HappyChristian]

John, below is an article about Ray Comfort and "Lordship Salvation."
 

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/ray_comfort-secret.htm 

 

Well, I've got to say right off that the source is questionable at the very least in my mind.  And he lumps David Cloud in with Washer, McArthur, etc...I don't agree with David Cloud on everything, but I know he's not a heretic.  The author's take on Cloud's "backdoor to Lordship Salvation" is inaccurate...he takes an example Cloud used of an unsaved man who was clearly under conviction for certain sins, with Cloud pointing out that to come to Christ we must WANT to change (well, wouldn't conviction of sin by the Holy Spirit prompt that very thing?) and turns it into backdoor Lordship.  Misrepresentation, at best.  I'm not saying Comfort doesn't teach Lordship Salvation - it seems clear to me that he does. But I know Cloud doesn't. 

 

(this same author pushes a book that purports to prove that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago...no evolution, just false science to claim a young earth...)

[swathdiver]

I think David Stewart is off with regards to Ray Comfort.  In his heart and mind, under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, a lost person turns from sin towards Jesus Christ, whom he now puts his trust, his faith in.  Maybe RC didn't articulate it best in writing but DS's charges are not evident on his television show or witness encounters.

[John81]

I haven't read any of John McCarther's old books on Lordship Salvation, John.  What I do know is that he teaches it now.  Recently, I have seen many videos and read many articles by JM on this very topic.  He believes and tells people that they must be sinless before accepting Christ as Personal Saviour.  As I said, I went round and round with Pentacostals, on the Internet, about this very topic.  They believe that a person must be sinless before accepting Jesus into their hearts as Lord of Lord's and King of Kings.  "Sinless Perfection" is a very common concept, in this world.  How is this possible when we are going to be sinning for the rest of our lives?
 

I believe Ray Comfort is sincere in his desire to lead the lost to Christ.  However, I have seen and read articles, like the one Jerry posted above, where RC teaches Lordship Salvation.  I believe that RC is carrying some Judaism, from his past, as he presents the gospel.  That is just my opinion, though.  I wasn't aware that Kirk Cameron left the ministry of "Way of the Master."  That explains why I haven't seen him in recent videos.  Thanks for clarifying, John.     

 

I'm certainly not going to say you are wrong in any of this because beyond what I've already stated, I'm not familiar with what either of these men are saying or doing these days. I only know what I've seen in the older videos from Comfort and that one book I got at a yard sale by MacArthur. Beyond that, I have no comment and I don't endorse MacArthur at all, I know exceedingly little of the man other than he seems to be popular in some circles; and beyond saying some of the old Way of the Master evangelism videos presented biblical soul winning examples, I don't endorse Comfort either. Thank you for sharing what you've recently seen.

[candlelight]

Well, I've got to say right off that the source is questionable at the very least in my mind.  And he lumps David Cloud in with Washer, McArthur, etc...I don't agree with David Cloud on everything, but I know he's not a heretic.  The author's take on Cloud's "backdoor to Lordship Salvation" is inaccurate...he takes an example Cloud used of an unsaved man who was clearly under conviction for certain sins, with Cloud pointing out that to come to Christ we must WANT to change (well, wouldn't conviction of sin by the Holy Spirit prompt that very thing?) and turns it into backdoor Lordship.  Misrepresentation, at best.  I'm not saying Comfort doesn't teach Lordship Salvation - it seems clear to me that he does. But I know Cloud doesn't. 

 

(this same author pushes a book that purports to prove that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago...no evolution, just false science to claim a young earth...)

 

I agree with you about David Cloud, HC.  Cloud is a very good preacher and is no heretic.  In fact, I have his "Way of Life of the Bible and Christianity" book.  I just posted this because it has Ray Comfort's own words in the article, although the source is probably not credible.

 

 

I think David Stewart is off with regards to Ray Comfort.  In his heart and mind, under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, a lost person turns from sin towards Jesus Christ, whom he now puts his trust, his faith in.  Maybe RC didn't articulate it best in writing but DS's charges are not evident on his television show or witness encounters.

 

Agreed, swath.  Although, below is the definition of "repentance."

Forms of the word "repent" or "repentance" are used in the New Testament 66 times in 60 verses.  The majority of the time it is translated from the Greek words metanoia; noun, and metanoeo, verb. It simply means "to change one's mind." The object of the change of mind has to be determined by the context. A person can repent or change his mind about anything. Sorrow or a changed life after repentance may or may not occur but it is not in the meaning of the word itself. As opposed to the OT, the words used in the Greek NT for repent/repentance are consistently translated as such. Six of the occurrences in the New Testament "repent" are translated from a form of the Greek word "metamelomai" and it can have a meaning of "caring afterwards, or "regret."

Many times the unsaved person is exhorted by well-meaning pastors and Bible teachers to "repent of their sins and believe in Jesus in order to receive eternal life. This message is so widespread that we tend to assume that it is in the Bible. The terms "repent of sin" or "repentance of sin" are not even to be found in God's word!
 

Though the terms "repent of sin" and "repentance of sin" are not to be found in the Bible, the concept of repentance of sin is found. Usually, this is a message for those who have already believed in Jesus and have eternal life. Some examples of this are: 1. Simon the sorcerer in Acts, Chapter 8. In verse 12 and 13, we read that Simon believed in Jesus along with others. In verses 18 and 19, Simon then sees the phenomenon of the Holy Spirit being given and offers the apostles money so that he could have the same power. Peter admonishes his and tells him to "repent of this thy wickedness," and pray that he might be forgiven. Please note that this is speaking of a believer’s forgiveness, not an unsaved persons’ justification. Forgiveness is a fellowship issue, not a forensic issue. 2. In 2 Corinthians 7:8-10, Paul rejoices that the believers "sorrowed to repentance" concerning the carnal lifestyle that they were embracing. Verse 10 states in part, "For godly sorrow worketh repentance (metanoia) to salvation not to be repented (metamellomai) of...." Note that the text does not say that godly sorrow is repentance. 3. In 2 Corinthians 12:21, we find the Apostle Paul lamenting that he might find the Corinthian believers still in a deplorable state of disobedient Christian living. He mourns that some "have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed." 4. In Revelation, Chapters 2 and 3, we find admonitions to believers in five of the seven churches to repent of specifically mentioned patterns of sin in which they were engaged. None of the above instances did the repentance have anything to do with them being eternally saved. 5. Even in Luke 15, there is good reason to believe that the two references to the “joy in heaven over one sinner who repents,” (verses 7, 10) are frequently misused; as both of them are referring to straying believers and have nothing to do with an unsaved person becoming justified in God’s sight (just as the “prodigal” son later in the same chapter who remained a son, though a disobedient and straying one, until he repented and judged his sin). 6. Repentance is also commanded to a crowd of unknown spiritual status in order to avoid God’s temporal judgment. For example, a pair of often misused verses is Luke 13:3, 5; “I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” The word “likewise” should tell us something about the meaning of the exhortation. Both verses refer in the context to those who experienced sudden and calamitous deaths. Verse four implies that this exhortation is addressed to them because of their ungodly attitude about their own sin. This prophecy was most likely fulfilled during the siege of Jerusalem by Titus in 70 AD (verses 34, 35). According to Josephus, around 1,100,000 Jews died during this Roman siege. Please note also, that the one requirement for eternal justification given over 150 times in the NT; belief, is not mentioned once in this passage. It is not a passage telling us how to be eternally saved. 6. In Revelation 9; 20, 21 and 16:9, 11, we find examples of God's temporal judgment upon the unbeliever for not forsaking mentioned patterns of sin. This again is not in the context of believing in Jesus and receiving eternal life. This also is referring to what will occur during the Great Tribulation period. Some who proclaim the message of "repent of sin and believe in Jesus" legitimately lament the sad state of the average believer and even the general condition of the body of Christ today. With some, the rationale seems to be that since believers are living such a carnal lifestyle, that we need to make it "hard" to get saved; that they need to have some level of obedience to Jesus before they even receive that gift of eternal life. If we have to earn it, it no longer is a gift.

[swathdiver]

From the Way of Life Encyclopedia:

 

http://www.wayoflife.org/publications/books/encyclopedia.php

 

SOME DEFINITIONS OF REPENTANCE

 

“Repentance is a change of mind that results in a change of life” (Bruce Lackey).

 

“Repentance is ‘a change of mind Godward that leads to a judgment of self and one’s acts’ (1 Ki. 8:47; Eze. 14:6; Mt. 3:2; 9:13;

Lk. 15:7; Ac. 20:21; 2 Co. 7:9,10). This would not be possible but for the thought of mercy in God. It is the goodness of God that

leads to repentance (Ro. 2:4)” (Concise Bible Dictionary).

 

“Real penitence; sorrow or deep contrition for sin, as an offense and dishonor to God, a violation of his holy law, and the basest

ingratitude towards a Being of infinite benevolence. This is accompanied and followed by amendment of life” (Noah Webster,

American Dictionary of the English Language, 1828).

 

“Repentance is a godly sorrow for sin. Repentance is a forsaking of sin. Real repentance is putting your trust in Jesus Christ so

you will not live like that anymore. Repentance is permanent. It is a lifelong and an eternity-long experience. You will never love

the devil again once you repent. You will never flirt with the devil as the habit of your life again once you get saved. You will

never be happy living in sin; it will never satisfy; and the husks of the world will never fill your longing and hungering in your soul.

Repentance is something a lot bigger than a lot of people think. It is absolutely essential if you go to heaven” (Lester Roloff,

Repent or Perish)

 

“To repent literally means to have a change of mind or spirit toward God and toward sin. It means to turn from your sins,

earnestly, with all your heart, and trust in Jesus Christ to save you. You can see, then, how the man who believes in Christ

repents and the man who repents believes in Christ. The jailer repented when he turned from sin to believe in the Lord Jesus

Christ” (John R. Rice, What Must I Do to Be Saved?).

[JerryNumbers]

Very true, Jerry.  Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron DO promote Lordship Salvation, which is heresy.  This damnable heresy is all over the internet.  Pentacostals are widley known for believing it.  When are we going to be perfect in this life?  When do we stop sinning?  I went round and round with people on the Internet about this very topic.  And, as the article said, John McCarther also promotes this false doctrine.

I posted this very same thing on OB years ago regarding "Way of the Master", and was shot down for saying it.  I am glad that you pointed it out with a Biblical article, Jerry.

Sadly, Ray and Kirk are out on the streets, tying to lead souls to Christ.  IFB's go door knocking, but rarely do I see IFB's doing any street preaching in this country.  It is a very sad state of affairs when other sects, not holding to the word of God, are out attempting to lead souls to Jesus.  We sit on his perfect word, and all we do is go door knocking?  This is not what the early church did.

 

So sad some Christians seems unable to tell the difference in the teaching of Lordship Salvation & the teaching about the real thing.

 

I suppose that's why many support Mr. Billy Graham, they can't tell the difference in the real thing from that which is not true. Which I remember clearly I had to listen to him several times before I understood he was not always teaching God's truths.

 

For >instants this post I made, a person said it was an excellent example of a person getting saved, yet its not, sounds like on who is following Billy Graham.

[JerryNumbers]

John MacArthur wrote a book on this, which I picked up at a yard sale for a nickel or quarter, and in that book he rejects this form of "Lordship salvation" as being a false teaching. According to what he wrote in his book, "real" Lordship salvation is simply that if one is truly saved they have made Jesus the Lord of their life and this will be evidenced by them truly seeking to follow Jesus, to obey His Word. In other words, he says that if one is saved their life will evidence their salvation. This view takes a stand against those who promote the idea that one only has to repeat some "sinners prayer" and they are automatically saved or they just need to say "I believe in Jesus" and they are automatically saved and they can go on living just as they did before but they are saved.

 

I don't know much concerning the battle between the two competing concepts of "Lordship salvation", but the one which says one must get right with God before they can be saved is clearly unbiblical, while the one which says a truly saved person will show evidence of their salvation is biblical.

 

Back to Ray Comfort, I don't know what he does or doesn't believe in this area, but I do know in his past evangelism videos he never presented any idea at all of one needing to stop sinning before they can be saved. Comfort walks one through the Ten Commandments, making it clear that we are all sinners, then discusses God's justice, hell for lost sinners, salvation for those who are born again in Christ.

 

That said, if Ray has changed that approach in recent years, that's something I'm not aware of. Kirk Cameron has moved on to other things and hasn't been with Comforts ministry for some time now. The last time I saw any of Comforts evangelism videos was from back when Kirk was still there.

 

So, I can say his old evangelism videos gave sound biblical guidance for witnessing and street preaching, but I have no knowledge of any newer videos he may have made.

 

John MacArthur is of the reformed, teaches & holds to Calvin's teachings.

 

JOHN MACARTHUR AND THE BLOOD OF CHRIST

[JerryNumbers]

Well, I've got to say right off that the source is questionable at the very least in my mind.  And he lumps David Cloud in with Washer, McArthur, etc...I don't agree with David Cloud on everything, but I know he's not a heretic.  The author's take on Cloud's "backdoor to Lordship Salvation" is inaccurate...he takes an example Cloud used of an unsaved man who was clearly under conviction for certain sins, with Cloud pointing out that to come to Christ we must WANT to change (well, wouldn't conviction of sin by the Holy Spirit prompt that very thing?) and turns it into backdoor Lordship.  Misrepresentation, at best.  I'm not saying Comfort doesn't teach Lordship Salvation - it seems clear to me that he does. But I know Cloud doesn't. 

 

(this same author pushes a book that purports to prove that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago...no evolution, just false science to claim a young earth...)

 

Like anyone, there will be disagreement on something, for even false teachers gets somethings right. This is about the man named Ray. And I did not post that link pointing to anyone else, just the teachings of the man named Ray.

 

And like you say, there's things I disagree with Cloud on, but I never refereed to him as a heretic.

[HappyChristian]

Jerry, I never said anything about you in my post. I quoted Molly and was talking about the link she posted. The man who wrote the article she linked called DC a heretic. Please go back and notice that was what I was referencing.

[JerryNumbers]

Jerry, I never said anything about you in my post. I quoted Molly and was talking about the link she posted. The man who wrote the article she linked called DC a heretic. Please go back and notice that was what I was referencing.

 

OK, sorry,   , yet if I remember correctly the article I posted may have said something about a couple of more pastors. 

[candlelight]

 

From the Way of Life Encyclopedia:

 

http://www.wayoflife.org/publications/books/encyclopedia.php

 

SOME DEFINITIONS OF REPENTANCE

 

“Repentance is a change of mind that results in a change of life” (Bruce Lackey).

 

“Repentance is ‘a change of mind Godward that leads to a judgment of self and one’s acts’ (1 Ki. 8:47; Eze. 14:6; Mt. 3:2; 9:13;

Lk. 15:7; Ac. 20:21; 2 Co. 7:9,10). This would not be possible but for the thought of mercy in God. It is the goodness of God that

leads to repentance (Ro. 2:4)” (Concise Bible Dictionary).

 

“Real penitence; sorrow or deep contrition for sin, as an offense and dishonor to God, a violation of his holy law, and the basest

ingratitude towards a Being of infinite benevolence. This is accompanied and followed by amendment of life” (Noah Webster,

American Dictionary of the English Language, 1828).

 

“Repentance is a godly sorrow for sin. Repentance is a forsaking of sin. Real repentance is putting your trust in Jesus Christ so

you will not live like that anymore. Repentance is permanent. It is a lifelong and an eternity-long experience. You will never love

the devil again once you repent. You will never flirt with the devil as the habit of your life again once you get saved. You will

never be happy living in sin; it will never satisfy; and the husks of the world will never fill your longing and hungering in your soul.

Repentance is something a lot bigger than a lot of people think. It is absolutely essential if you go to heaven” (Lester Roloff,

Repent or Perish)

 

“To repent literally means to have a change of mind or spirit toward God and toward sin. It means to turn from your sins,

earnestly, with all your heart, and trust in Jesus Christ to save you. You can see, then, how the man who believes in Christ

repents and the man who repents believes in Christ. The jailer repented when he turned from sin to believe in the Lord Jesus

Christ” (John R. Rice, What Must I Do to Be Saved?).

 

I agree, swath.  By "changing one's mind" and putting faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, as Personal Saviour, one has "repented" of their sins.  A godly life will follow, when one is saved.  Fruits of the Spirit are evident when a person has accepted Christ as Lord and Saviour over their life.  Also, if a person was sincere during the point of conversion, then they are saved.  Sometimes, a person is not grounded in the word of God, but they are saved.  Such is the case with people who were saved under the ministry of Billy Graham.  Many were sincere during that point in their lives, but never had a chance to grow b/c they were never directed into Bible believing churches. 

I just explained the greek in the NT on "repentance" b/c it sheds light on what true repentence means.  That is all.

[candlelight]

Below is an article on what "Lordship Salvation" is:  IT is clearly evident that "works" are added to salvation.  It doesn't mention any names, as to who teaches LS, either.  I think it is safe.   

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/Lordship%20Salvation/proof.htm