Are Christians That Drink Wine Not Saved?

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Talk about myopic vision... You have a one-way view yourself.

[Heir of Salvation]

One interesting and well-written paper I stumbled onto which seems to treat the subject quite reasonably.

http://drbacchus.com/bible/alcohol.html

[swathdiver]

...and yet, the Puritans (who would perceive any modern I.F.B. liberal by comparison).....would disagree with you about alcohol.  Ditto the Saintly Pilgrims.  Hmmm.   So, I suppose from the perspective of the Puritans the abstinence saints are liberals?  And they often thought of the KJV as a "M.V." often refusing to let go their beloved Geneva's. 

 

There are some people who cannot help but view the entire history of Planet Earth through the lens of their own part of the world and in their own generation, creating a very myopic perception........Dunno if any of them are denizens of this board or not.

 

Who cares about history and what a denomination may think?  I care about the Word of God.  I want to follow what the Lord says and not man.  God forbids alcohol, period.  These sipping saints won't let go of their beloved enemy now will they?

[swathdiver]

One interesting and well-written paper I stumbled onto which seems to treat the subject quite reasonably.

http://drbacchus.com/bible/alcohol.html

 

The poor man you quote does not understand contexts.  I was walking in the cool air with a cool person and then went into the cooler.  How many different definitions of "meat" can you find in your King James?

[Heir of Salvation]

Who cares about history and what a denomination may think?  I care about the Word of God.  I want to follow what the Lord says and not man.  God forbids alcohol, period.  These sipping saints won't let go of their beloved enemy now will they?

1.) I care about history, and any thinking person should as well.

2.) Puritans are not a denomination...knowledge of history would inform you of that.

3.) It was in response to your broad-brushing anyone who disagrees with you as a "liberal"....a common, but pointless and un-constructive thing to do in a debate.

 

 

You are not following the Word of God by teaching total abstinence because it is un-Scriptural...you are following (a uniquely modern actually) doctrine of Men not contained in Scripture.  I'm sure you have the best intentions with respect to it, and truly believe that the Scriptures teach abstinence, but they do not.  It would be very simple if they did, but they clearly don't.  you are mistaken.

[Heir of Salvation]

The poor man you quote does not understand contexts.  I was walking in the cool air with a cool person and then went into the cooler.  How many different definitions of "meat" can you find in your King James?

So...I take it it took you less than 7 total minutes between the time I posted that article and the time you hollistically condemned it?  You are quite the speed-reader.

[swathdiver]

1.) I care about history, and any thinking person should as well.

2.) Puritans are not a denomination...knowledge of history would inform you of that.

3.) It was in response to your broad-brushing anyone who disagrees with you as a "liberal"....a common, but pointless and un-constructive thing to do in a debate.

 

 

You are not following the Word of God by teaching total abstinence because it is un-Scriptural...you are following (a uniquely modern actually) doctrine of Men not contained in Scripture.  I'm sure you have the best intentions with respect to it, and truly believe that the Scriptures teach abstinence, but they do not.  It would be very simple if they did, but they clearly don't.  you are mistaken.

 

1.  I care about history too but in this context, who cares.

2. Guess I chose the wrong word to describe them, either way, they are wrong to think it's ok to drink booze.

3.  Fine, not pointless, it's true.  I forgot to add that I bet they all like Rock-n-Roll music too!

 

Baloney, God's Word is clear when one takes the time to study it out.  Of course one will be lost and deceived without knowing Christ and or using one of those wretched MVs.

 

The Lord forbids the consumption of booze.  Wise up and don't be a fool.

[swathdiver]

So...I take it it took you less than 7 total minutes between the time I posted that article and the time you hollistically condemned it?  You are quite the speed-reader.

 

Decades of training sir.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Actually HoS... it is you that is mistaken.

Proverbs 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

That verse alone is clear instruction for abstinence.  'Don't even look at it when it is fermented' is what the verse is conveying to the reader.

One ounce of alcohol kills brain cells.  Just one ounce.  Scripture is right.  Those who are deceived by alcohol are not wise.

If one isn't wise, what are they?  Scripture Identifies them as fools. 

You are deceived by alcohol.  It destroys brain cells, is harmful to all the major organs in the body, perverts one's judgment and reaction time after just one ounce of it.

Only fools drink alcohol. 

[Heir of Salvation]

So what if the Puritans may have drank in moderation. That still does not make it right.

We are to pattern ourselves after God, not sinful man

Gad's Word teaches abstinence in many passages. If the Puritans drank, they were walking in disobedience.

No, it doesn't....but, then again, that is why I made no such argument.  I would not have made such an argument.

We are to pattern ourselves after God, not sinful man

Yes...and while in the flesh, he partook of alcoholic beverages.

Matt 11: 18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.

 

Matt. 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Gad's Word teaches abstinence in many passages. If the Puritans drank, they were walking in disobedience.

 

It does not, not in any place does it teach abstinence...of all of the opportunities the Scriptures had in all of it's mentioning of alcohol...not once does it command us to totally abstain.

[Heir of Salvation]

Decades of training sir.

Oh, o.k.... yeah.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Where does that verse say Jesus was drinking alcohol?

The answer...

NOWHERE!

 

That verse only says he was eating and drinking.  It does not say it was alcohol He was drinking.  You accuse Him falsely just as the Pharisees did of old.

[swathdiver]

 

Matt. 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

 

 

You are deceived sir.  In this verse they are liars, can't you see that?  They were bearing false witness, same as you!  

[Heir of Salvation]

You are deceived sir.  In this verse they are liars, can't you see that?    

You and Standing should consider more carefully....yes, of course they were bearing false witness, in that Jesus was neither a wine-bibber nor a glutton.  But it does not mean that Christ was not telling the truth in that he did indeed "eat and drink".  Difference is, eating does not make one a glutton by default any more than the moderate consumption of alcohol makes one a "wine-bibber".  If you would honestly look again at the entirety of the evidence, than it would help you understand what is going on there.  They didn't generate their accusations out of whole-cloth they took very real evidence and mis-construed and falsely accused him based upon it.  Jesus did indeed eat with Publicans and sinners, and he did indeed eat and drink, but that does not make him either a glutton nor a wine-bibber.  Your defense of abstinence forces you to conclude that Jesus didn't mean exactly what he said when he said he "ate and drank". 

The view you espouse forces you into some very absurd conclusions about what that passage states....just like the presumption of abstinence forces one into similarly absurd conclusions about the marriage at Cana, and Paul's instructions to Timothy about Pastors and Deacons and absurd conclusions about verses such as:

 

Deut 14:26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household

 

 

They were bearing false witness, same as you!

 

LOL.   I.F.B. extremists are so cute when they get angry

[Heir of Salvation]

Where does that verse say Jesus was drinking alcohol?

The answer...

NOWHERE!

 

That verse only says he was eating and drinking.  It does not say it was alcohol He was drinking.  You accuse Him falsely just as the Pharisees did of old.

In the part where Jesus himself said, of himself..."the Son of Man came eating and drinking"....that's where.  Read it again:

The Son of man came eating and drinking..........If you have a red-letter edition...it will be in red not blue.